Episode 35 - Good Grief, Charlie Brown! Next Rung's Charlie Brown talks peer support and future challenges for the fire service.
Engineer Paramedic Charlie Brown saw the mental health challenges in the fire service and wanted to do something about it. So he co-founded Next Rung, a national nonprofit that provides free peer, counseling, and treatment support for firefighters and their loved ones. In this conversion, Charlie tells the Next Rung origin story and how they've grown to providing peer support to more than 330 firefighters in 2023. Charlie also provides insight into the challenges he sees on the horizon for firefighters. To contact Next Rung for peer support or counseling, call or text 833-NEXT-RUNG. If you are in crisis, please call or text 988.
Transcript
Peter
Welcome to the Firehouse Roundtable podcast, brought to you by the Ventura Fire Foundation. I'm one of your hosts. Peter McKenzie, retired fire captain with the city of Ventura Fire Department and my co-host Jason Kay, Active Battalion Chief with the City of Ventura. Fire department. We are going to bring awareness to real issues that face firefighters and their families. We want you to feel like you have a seat at the kitchen table, which every firefighter knows is the heart of the Firehouse. Let's get right into the episode. All right, welcome to another episode of the Firehouse Roundtable. Jason, welcome.
Jason
Thanks, man. It's good to see you.
Peter
Yeah. Likewise. Feels like it's been a little while since we recorded an episode, but we have with us today, Charlie Brown, who is. The co-founder of Next Rung, also a Glendale firefighter. Charlie, welcome to the show. We'll give you a minute to kind of tell our listeners a little bit about you, but we're excited to have you on.
Charlie
Well, thanks for having me. Yeah. Like I said, well engineer paramedic with the Glendale Fire Department here in Southern California. I've been there going on 14 years. That department I started with Cal Fire as a well and. Regional on Riverside County, Co, founder of next rung nonprofit for firefighter and 1st Responder Mental Health launched our nonprofit status in 2018. I got a family of three children, one wife, two dogs lived in the American dream. Out here in in Southern California, where the weather is always amazing. So. Yeah. I mean in a nutshell that's, that's me. I'm sure we'll get down into the nitty gritty of a lot of those things, but. Those are the. Basics.
Peter
Yeah, I I assume we have a quite a bit in common like it's not a, it's not not every fireman starts a nonprofit, we just happen to be doing the same thing you're doing in that regard. So definitely want to dive into that. And obviously, mental health of the first responders and the families is are like, stick. And it sounds like, you know, we're aligned in that. Respects as well. So yeah, I'm excited to have this conversation. It's always nice to see other people who care about the same things you do and who are willing to do something about it, right? Like, it's not easy to start a nonprofit, right? Like, I'm sure you're enjoying the, you know, the seven figure income you're getting from the nonprofit. So that makes it all worth it. Right.
Speaker
No.
Charlie
Yeah, 7:00.
Speaker
Yes.
Charlie
Zeros. Yeah. The seven zeros? Yeah, they're. Pretty awesome.
Peter
Everybody loves to work for free, which obviously that's what you do in a nonprofit. But yeah, so we're, we're excited. Why don't you start with, tell us a little bit about what next? Round is like. What? What's what's the story with it?
Charlie
For sure. Yeah. So you know, next round came to be back 2017 early on 2017 and you know I'm. Almost 40, and I feel like I've got the benefits of the little bit millennial, little bit Gen. Z type, you know, aspects. I still know what the way things were back in the old days, you know, dial up phones and so forth, but still in tune with technology. So and I leave that because the way next round came to be was completely just it was over social media which is so like. Millennial to say, but yeah, Blake Stinnett. Who's my my partner in crime. With the next round, he's in Georgia. He's a firefighter just outside. Atlanta and he found me on Instagram. I was coaching CrossFit and doing a lot of stuff for, you know, pushing the physical fitness side of the fire service. And, you know, just doing all that. And so anyway, it it popped up in his his little social media feed. So Blake actually had the name already and had an idea for. T-shirt company to sell T-shirts, raise money and then donate the money back. The reason why he came up with the. The name and and that idea was because in his department, where he was working, he had suffered a number of suicides. They had five suicides over the course of two years in the county and fire department that he was working for when he had first come into the fire service. They he had one of his Academy instructors who was top notch guy. Wife. Kids, you know, everything seemed to be going well. Would give you no inclination. Anything was wrong and and that individual took his own life. Six months after Blake, you know, was on probationary year. So that was the first one. And then subsequently they had a bunch. More after that so. You know, left him wondering why, what's going on? Why is this happening? And so, yeah, he had this, this idea of like, hey, we need to, you know, kind of donate some money or do something to kind of go after that cause. Anyway, found me reached out said hey, would you be interested in, you know, kind of supporting swag. And so we decided we were going to be a nonprofit. And at the time summer of 2017, you know, I remember at the Fire Chief at the time. Hot button topic of mental health. You know, they were saying, hey, we're going to do stuff for your guys's mental health that wasn't really at Pierce 4 wasn't a thing. We didn't have a peer support team, but we had we had system and everything. We're gonna sign you guys up for this website. You're going to be able to access some resources in case something, but that was it, right? And I remember going on the website and clicking on on my department and it's. Like the resource available is the fire. You know, and it's like, that's it, you know? And who do you, who really wants to when you when you're in a time or of need. You know the the Fire Chiefs Office is probably not the place that most people are going to turn so. We knew it was being talked about, but not a whole lot was being pushed behind it. And so, you know, Blake and I said, we're going to focus on the mental health side. Really trying. To help people in that regard, and so we knew we needed a place where first responders could go and communicate. You know, we recognize the importance of conversation. And I've said like, if a lot of times you just need someone to talk to and when it's the fire chief's office that's being advertised, you know, it's probably not the place that people are going to go talk. So.
Peter
Let's try and.
Charlie
Get first responders in contact with first responders that understand what it is. You know that they could be going through. And so we're like, we need to come. Up. With a way of, you know, creating a communication line because. Social media messages, Facebook messages, e-mail all those things are time delayed. They don't work well, you know, cumbersome. And so we wanted something that was pretty much, you know, more instant. So we like, we need to have a talk line, you know, or something in a way that people can reach out and and communicate. Like, right now. So we came up with a phone number and recognized the need for text messaging, and so that's what our line is. Our help line is is a talk or text line and and you know like I said, we quickly realize that the text message is the. Value of it. Because people will unleash everything via text message, you know.
Peter
Let's let's pause there, Charlie, because I don't want to go through the whole. Thing start to finish. In one breath. But I will say, Jason, how familiar does this story sound?
Jason
Yeah, very familiar. And I think it goes. It goes with like what's? Doing. People want to. Help and they want to know what it is other people need. Right. So a lot of that, a lot of what you're talking about is what we've been trying to do too. And a lot of departments have been trying to do and and team up with. It seems like you specifically in your foundation has had some success with this. The one question. That sticks out to. Me is who answers the phone. For the text message, how did you find those people and who is it that that is talking back and and giving some therapy and health advice?
Charlie
Yeah. Well, the first started was Blake and myself. There's two of us answering phone calls and text messages for about the whole first year and. And. You know, it's just you're answering at the you're at the needs of people and. And so we we've expanded since then we have 34 peer support members, but you know our peer support team that across all.
Jason
Did you guys start? Sorry to interrupt. Did you guys start your peer support team? The two of you as well or by yourself or how, how did that come into existence?
Charlie
That appears to mean like with next rung wise.
Jason
No, your peer support team, are you the peer support group in your department?
Peter
Yes, well, so I am.
Jason
Or is there still not?
Charlie
On our Pierce four team, but I had I did not form our Pierce four team in my department. I I ended up. I had already next round as a stablished before our Pierce four team at the department was established and so we have like a peer support lead and and folks that were running that that saw the need of it. Or the need for it as well. I'm fortunate to be a part of the team and I lend. Any resources or anything that I have knowledge wise or anything to our team as well. But yeah, it's interesting like running you know you got one foundation or your own thing on one side and then your department on the other and. I'm not trying to mix with you.
Jason
Yeah, but you're just trying to. You're just trying to do good, right, like, everywhere you go. And when you first said it was just you and Blake who were answering the phone, did you guys have any training? Were you just there to pick up the phone and go? Somebody's here to listen. Like, how can I help this guy?
Charlie
Yeah, you know. With someone here. Listen. Yeah. Peer support training was not a thing. The Iowa. Take that back. I mean, not that it wasn't the thing the IFF was probably the only, you know, training program that was out there. But if you wanted to get that, then you had to, you know, have that. How that system works in terms of like having your right, your association pay for the training, whatever. But no. You know, one of the things that that we push. Or support rather, is that for those people that that want to help that want to be someone to, you know, listen and and help others in need, that training well is good and we'll get you exposed to some of the. You know, more like medical side of things and in terms of you know studies and and educational side of things like if you have a heart to listen and a heart to ask you know to help then. You should be given that opportunity and so we tell people like when people reach out and say, hey, how can we be involved? Can we be a part of the peer support team or can we you? You know, do whatever right to get involved with the organization. We encourage people like be, you know, a voice in your own agency, start where you're at. We'll be there to support you, kind of like backfill, you know, with support, maybe some resources and so forth. But just start where you're at and then, you know, go from there. Let people know that you're. You're willing to listen. Start the conversations. How to start those converse. You know when you that whole you see something, say something, you know, type attitude.
Jason
Peter, before you talk, I'm going to interrupt just for one second because I know what you're going to say because this is a if Peter had a a like AT shirt that said something.
Peter
I think you're wrong. I think you're. Wrong on this, but go ahead. Let's see it.
Jason
It would be, it would be do something, do something like stop. Yeah. Don't do nothing. Don't. Just think about it. Take some action. Right. And I think that's what you did. That, that that's a great leadership way to.
Peter
Oh, gotcha.
Jason
Think of it as you you saw a need. There's plenty of need out there, right? And everybody's going. What do we do? What do we do? You. You led the way and did something. So. I'll let's go ahead, Peter, on here.
Peter
Yeah, I just wanna say I wanna say did you guys intentionally model a peer support team anywhere and everywhere in the fire service for this nonprofit cause essentially it just hearing what you're saying is you basically are taking it. And I'm sure there's more to it and you're hopefully we talked about it. But from from what I've heard so far.
Charlie
It's just it's a peer support team that you're that you're putting out to everyone across the country or wherever it is that it and the simplest and that's what we call everyone, everyone that's in the organization that that's our peer support team and we call our talk text line is our peer support line like that's the first line of communication is the peer support line. And really what we see the organization, the way things are going.
Speaker
Yeah.
Charlie
And what we like to see in the the trend, obviously the nonprofit side of things and helping use those funds to pay for treatment. Is a huge part of it, but we we're really encouraged by seeing the the big increase in numbers of people that are reaching out and asking for help because you know the the biggest challenge, if you will right, is changing the culture and getting first responders to recognize and realize that they have something maybe going on and recognizing that. It doesn't matter how. How big it is or how small it is, or whether you think it's worthy or unworthy? You know, like there's nothing too big, there's nothing too small and it's all about having that conversation and starting it. And So what we've seen is this, this larger trend of people reaching out and asking for help. And so that's like we're super encouraged about because that's what we want. We want to change the culture and make it so that people feel comfort. Yeah. And reaching out and saying, hey, I got something going on. It may not be very big or, you know, you might think it's not that big a deal, you know, but it is maybe to me and I've it totally correlates to how, you know, we operate in the first responder world, right. Because we are 911. People call 911 and how many times is it like you called 9? You know inside your head. Obviously you're not. Maybe verbalizing this, but sometimes you will. But most times you're not. But you're like, I can't believe you called 911 for this. Right? Like why are you calling 9? This isn't an emergency, but maybe it's not an emergency to me or to you, or you know, but to them it is right to them. It's it. What is an emergency? I mean, I'd say it's just in a situation in which you're overwhelmed and you don't know what to do, and it can be, you know, medically, you know, obviously most significant thing. Disaster wise or whatever, but it could be something very simple where you're just home alone. You know, we get a lot of people like they live alone or whatever. They have no experience with anything in life. And they don't know how to turn off their stove, you know, like, and that's an emergency, you know. And so for some people in the in the mental health side of things, like, it's the same way, like they're, you know, it's funny, like, we'll change. We'll we'll have these kind of critiques or criticisms or whatever the people that you guys are, you know, we call them one or.
Speaker
Yeah, Charlie.
Jason
After them, right?
Charlie
You know, call upon us for whatever and it's like the same way next thing. You know, we're gonna. Call send a text message. To peer support and be like. I don't know if this is even worthy of, you know, peer support, but like dude, yeah, it it is worthy because obviously it's driven you to a point where you're like, I don't know the answer. I don't know how to handle it. I don't know where to go from here and that's where like same thing we show up on incidents and we're not experts in everything. But we're not going to leave until we help mitigate whatever it is you. Got going on.
Speaker 4
Hi I'm Austin folk, an engineer with the Ventura City Fire Department. I'm also on the board of the Ventura Fire Foundation, an organization that supports firefighters and their families. The foundation produces this podcast as part of our. Mission I worked. With the foundation, because I was witnessed for the help that it was able to provide. My family, the foundation, needs your help first. Please subscribe and rate this podcast on your podcast platform. This helps us get a higher ranking and more visibility for the show. Second, if you support the podcast and the foundations work, please consider donating. Every dollar helps us support firefighters and. Your families. There's a link in the show notes where you can donate through the website at www.centerfirefoundation.org. Thank you for listening.
Peter
I'm fascinated by how simple it was, and sometimes it's.
Charlie
Like.
Peter
Duh. Yeah, like we we have peer support teams in our departments. Not every department does. Some some departments are more progressive than others. So you guys were like, OK, well, we'll just screw the fire department. We'll just do our own nonprofit peer support, make it available to everybody. Same difference. Right. So simple. What has been the adoption like? Talk to us a little bit about the organization because I'm, I'm fascinated by this because. I the thing I hate about the fire department is the bureaucratic red tape and how difficult it is to get something done to to change all that stuff, right? We're all on the same page that I think every firefighter hates it. But you've basically extracted something that is good in the fire service that we need in the fire service, which is peer support. And you said, OK, I'm taking this step, maybe not consciously, but you basically said I'm taking this away from the fire department. We're gonna run it over here in this nonprofit, cause we can have we have way more freedom. We don't have all these jurisdictional boundaries and bureaucratic budgets and nonsense. What did that look like organizationally? Because you're also in a weird spot because you guys are on both coasts, which, you know, these things tend to be very localized and you influence the people in your department. But what is? So what did it look like getting started? How did people respond to it and then talk a little bit about the the dual coast aspects of it? Yeah. So like I said, when we.
Charlie
First started it was Blake. Myself, answering phone calls, text messages and it quickly we got overwhelmed, right. We always said if we helped one person then it was all worth it and we did it, you know, then we did good. We quickly I think in the first year I think we we peer supported. 60 to 70 like first respond.
Speaker 4
1st.
Charlie
They reached out for help in various capacities, but you know, we quickly realize, like we can't manage the like, we can't just do this. You know, the two of us, we we need more. And so really through networking and we've we say we just let it grow organically, you know, not putting forth like this huge.
Speaker
Hmm.
Charlie
Recruitment campaign or anything like that, like it's just been people that have come to us and they're genuine. You know, curiosity desire to, to want to help. Like I said at the very heart of it, our our ultimate goal is to lead the first responder community better than we found it. Right. We entered into this career, you know, 15 years ago and we just want to see it look better when when we're done. And so for those that come to us and say, hey, we want to be, you know, how can we be involved? What can we do? I have training and we have had people that say, hey, I've, you know. I've. Done pure sport training. I've done this that I've seen your guys. Organization at work. And I want to be I want more of that. I want to be a part of it. And so then we just start conversations with those folks and say. You know, this is what we do. This is how it works. This is what the system looks like. Now obviously we've built out a more robust peer. Team where you know, as the leadership has grown and you got to have that span of control. And so now I mean the the way that the team looks now you know Blake and myself, we're now kind of removed from the peer. We have a director of peer support, Caleb Grassman. He's a Lieutenant down in Jacksonville, FL. He manages the whole peer support team. So he he is the one, you know, helping them with any issues or doing whatever they got going on. Robert Arietta is our director of treatment. He's a Lieutenant out of New Mexico works for Albuquerque Fire Department and. He's in charge of.
Peter
Are these all? Are these paid? Are these? Paid positions? Or are these all volunteers?
Charlie
Everyone's a volunteer. The only ones right now that we're paying are the director of peer support and the director of treatment on a very minimal basis because we feel like we should, you know, want to or you know, the the goal is as the organization grows that they become, you know, worthy cause everyone's time is worth something, right. And so we want to make sure that those are that are dedicating time.
Peter
Are taken care of, but everyone else, those the only two like paid positions. Everyone else in the in the the our whole entire peer team is completely volunteer. How do you guys make money? How do you guys make money? What? What are your funding sources like? What does that look like for cause? I imagine you have some some, some significant expenses with all these people and the things you do.
Charlie
Yeah. So it's all just fundraising we have. Funneling through the website, which is like where people donate on a daily basis monthly basis, we have recurring donations, which is a huge portion of it. And then we are fundraising throughout the year. You know, fundraising events. We did our fight for mental, our battle for mental health back in the fall and then actually tomorrow we have our inaugural first ever face off for mental health. Charity hockey game here in Ontario, which we're hoping looks like, you know, we raised somewhere between $20,000 or so, you know, so. And then you know, we have some larger donations that come in, like on an annual basis that to people that that have been following our organization for a number of years, we have some big family trusts and stuff that donate to the for smart community. So, but I mean really every dollar counts, you know, and it really does when you start adding it up, it's pretty remarkable. We always, you know. We put our faith in, in, in other places. You know, we always say like, this isn't this isn't us. This isn't. That's why we don't Blake myself. Whatever. We don't take a paycheck or anything, it's it's not our money to have. Anybody that donates money to the organization or buys apparel or anything like that, you know that money goes right back into to helping people and and that's where we want the money to stay and go because ultimately that's what it's all about. And so how do?
Peter
What? What? What? What's the biggest struggle that your organization has? Like what? What's the hard?
Charlie
Part for you guys, I mean. Fundraising is the hardest part, and I think any nonprofit will tell you that that fundraising is the hardest part. You know it it money makes the world go round, which is unfortunate, but it is what it is. And when you talk about mental health, I mean, treatment costs are astronomically expensive. Luckily, insurance companies are coming more in tune and more in line and covering a lot of those things. So we've been able to offset a lot of cost because of that. But I mean, that's the biggest thing is, is, are we going to. Have enough money to be able to cover. The costs associated with said treatments, because last thing we want to do is tell people no, that we can't help you. Yeah. And we've always said, like, if at the end of the day, if we ran, the bank account ran to 0. And you had someone on the line that that meant life or death. I mean, Blake, myself, we, we would say I'm paying out of pocket. I'll pay to get this person that whatever it means to save her life, you know, and we have faith that. We'll be taken care of that, that won't happen. And thank God five years that's never happened. We've never run out of money. Matter of fact, I mean, we just finished up our 2023 numbers. If you if you guys didn't see we had posted on social media. But yeah, I told you in the first year we did like 60 to 70 peer support, you know, contacts in 2023 we did 333. So umm and then translate that to treatment costs or or clinical sessions counseling sessions, which would be the next step and we paid out for over 350 counseling sessions. We paid over $100,000 in treatment costs as a nonprofit from 2 firefighters that had no idea what they were doing and said if we raised, you know, $10. Then you know like great. And the fact that we can say that we've paid over $100,000 in treatment costs and that's not this isn't the first year that we've done that. We've never run out of money. I mean, I don't. Know it's pretty miraculous to me. We're. So we're super blessed and fortunate.
Jason
While you're talking about numbers, what does your staff look like right now, besides your two paid positions, how many peer support members do you have? Therapists. Like is that. Do you have them available all the time or do they make appointments with them or how? What are your numbers look like for staff?
Charlie
So we have about 34 members on the peer support team and like I said, they they go all across the. Arizona. We used to have a member in Hawaii. He since moved back to the mainland, so we can't say Hawaii to New York anymore, but from California to New York and all the way in between. So our peer support team is very when we say, you know, diverse because we try and and make it so we have. People from a wide range of from first responder communities so firefighters, EMT, paramedics, dispatchers. Versus we have, you know, men, women, we have like rank level all the way from the firefighter to the chief. So we have chiefs that are either active duty or retired. And again every kind of position in between there.
Jason
How do you get them on staff? How do you recruit for all those different peer support members?
Charlie
Oh, really? It's more like they come to us and then, you know, we start having conversations with them of, you know, OK, you're interested. You want to do. This. Let's let's just. Alright, we'd love to meet with you and have a talk and then see you know to let you know how it works. Kind of. What the.
Peter
Obligations are do you get people reaching out every? Yeah.
Charlie
Mm-hmm. Sometimes it's just a simple conversation, you know, checking in. Some people have, like, curious about how the organization works, whatever. But most sometimes we have a one, at least one text or something for, you know, a peer support, need a day and then some days it's just, you know, you get inundated and we're all calling, you know, hey, we need everyone to kind of step in so that.
Speaker
Yeah.
Charlie
And not anyone. Peer team members getting overwhelmed.
Peter
And handling it. What do you guys do? What do you do? You guys do anything for family? Do does the family ever reach out to? You or is. It just the. First responders, what? What do you?
Charlie
No, all of our service, all of our services are for the first responder and. Their significant other spouse, you know, kids to a certain age extent, obviously like teenagers and and older might have more or might be more apt to like, need some help but.
Peter
You you bring them, you bring them all in and treat them the same way. Basically, you'll give them whatever they need.
Charlie
Yeah. Yep. We've had plenty of and, and we encourage it, like, especially on the spouse side. You know, wives, husbands of first responders. I mean, who better to know? Their person, you know, to recognize that they're having an issue. We've had plenty of spouses that reach out and say, hey, my firefight. Here. I'm seeing a change and I don't know what's going on and I don't know. What to do? You know, our marriage is falling apart. Our relationship, this, you know, whatever. And a lot. Of it, you. You'll notice, right that a lot of first responders were attracted to other types of service oriented people, right? So you got a lot of nurses that are married to firefighters. You got, like, my wife's, a teacher. You know, so. Like within that sort of arrangement, right? Yeah. And so they've got some stuff going on, too. You know, we've got live high, like in high stress environments and so forth. And and then you take the first responder. And. Just hey, if you've never, you know, experience what it's like to live in a first responder household. Let me just, you know, show you, like, shake up this can and then. You know, open it and see what it comes out like. So when we get the spouses to reach out and say, hey, I don't know. Do great. We'd love to help. Look at you know, like, how can we help them to one get conversations started, right. Because then we can come out and say, hey, if I was your for if I was your spouse and I was having an issue because we can all be like, hey, would you take offense if your wife or someone came to you and like, I know there's something wrong. With you and you're going to go to treatment. And I'm like, no, you know, like you don't know or whatever. Right. So how can we help them through to, like, kind of crack that that shell and get in there a little bit and encourage them saying, hey, you know, I heard about these next round, this next round group maybe, you know. These subtle hints, you know, whatever it might be a little card here, a little there, you know. Note there, whatever. Get them thinking about it. Encourage the conversation and so forth. So yeah, we helped the whole family. And then when, especially when it comes to like the treatment side of things, counseling we pay for treatment, counseling for the spouse just as much as the the first responder, because we we truly believe in building the household. You know, it's not. It can't be 1 sided. You can have. And we've seen it happen where you sent the first responder, goes to treatment like like an intensive type treatment, right? And they get like. Relief, and they're they're feeling good and they're coming back. Without recognizing the fact that on the other side of it. There are some wounds from. What happened? You know, leading up to that point. So it's like hey, like. We've seen relationships. Like fall apart, like you know where first winter's feeling good. I went. Got treatment like everything's good. I go home. And I'm I'm good and I'm, you know, and there's this like resentment. Like, well, you never like really you never heal the others like you. That's good. You healed yourself. But guess what? The other side is is pretty like still, you know, kind of upset about how you treated them or how.
Peter
You just made us lift your health for you.
Charlie
You know, uninvolved, you were or whatever. And so it's like, hey, that's really great for you. I'm so glad that you're feeling better. But guess what? There's a lot of people within this house that are not feeling very well, you know? And so we feel like we need to, we need to bring them both together. And so we we pay for treatment like joint treatment. Well, they'll go to whether it's marriage counseling, whatever. We'll do it individually. You know, one goes to each clinician, whatever.
Peter
Charlie, let's pause there. I want to zoom out a little bit and shift gears on you a little bit, so.
Speaker
Sure.
Peter
We're I I view our organizations is kind of in this together, right and we're not the only two organizations that are trying to address these issues and there's other organizations that frankly may do the same things that that our foundation and your foundation does. What is your take on? Networking with other similar organizations, like what? How do you guys navigate those worlds? You're you're in a unique perspective because you're basically a national organization, which is awesome. I think is amazing. We're more localized cause the one that comes to mind right off the bat is the Overwatch collective Greg up in Northern California, who is doing something very similar to you. How do you get? How does your organization? How do you guys play with others? I guess, is it a simpler question? Like what, what, what, how do you see that cause a lot of this is like vision high level stuff and how we're going to tackle some of these issues?
Speaker
MHM.
Charlie
Yeah. At the end of the day. The only thing that matters are the people that get help. And like for our organization, it's not about next run. It's not about being the one the best that we we want to, we want to have a top notch organization. We want to put forth you know a quality product, if you will, a trustworthy you know service that people can say hey. That organization really takes care of people like they care. They're, you know, real. You know, that's why it's important that all of our Members are, you know, either active duty, retired so forth, are still involved in the community in some aspect. Like they get it, you know? And and again, they're real. Like, we're not. We're not a call service like an answering service where you, you know you call. The number and. You get someone who doesn't you know, care where you're calling from or whatever. And so at the end of the day, it's about the it's about the end user. It's about the person. And so with that. When it comes to other organizations that are especially talking about this this topic, the more the merrier. By all means, like there's plenty of room. And guess what? We we don't have unlimited finances, so if you got money or you got, you know, resources to get people help. Thank you. Appreciate you like here here.
Speaker
I can send.
Charlie
I'll send you some or whatever, right, like it's not. It's not about, like this competition or, you know, we'd like to.
Jason
We.
Charlie
I mean, we can certainly look at each other and go. We really like what they're doing. Like I love the Overwatch collectives app like, I think it's a great idea, right? And a place. It's super simple. Everyone's got one of these, you know, and it makes it accessible. Very cool. We don't have the tech kind of background or anything like that, you know, develop something like that but.
Peter
Has anybody ever tried that? Has anybody ever tried to hire you guys as like an outsourced peer support team like the department pays you or has a contract with you?
Charlie
It's been talked about it. It's been so the problem is like mobilization. And what does that look like?
Jason
That's that's my entrepreneurial Peter. I know you're. Coming into this so.
Charlie
Not you, I mean.
Jason
Hey I have a question for you, Charlie.
Speaker
Yeah.
Jason
So doing this and. Receiving as many calls as your group does. Do you have something that you're on the lookout for for the future? So for instance, what are you hearing more and more of right now concerning firefighters, mental health? What can we as captains or guys who are living at the Firehouse, be on the lookout for that you're seeing most of right now?
Charlie
I think you know one of the things that you're seeing on the national level and you kind of touched on before the show you're talking about like staffing and stuff like that, right? Is that there's a huge decline in the numbers of people that want to do this. They're enter into this. Profession. Right. Like we're seeing it across the board here in California.
Jason
Yeah.
Charlie
And I'm sure it's like that, you know, across the country and we and we do see it when people like kind of reach out right, because you talk about burnout. And just to like hit a top hot button, you know like. Keyword if you will right the burnout that we're constantly being tasked to do more with less and it's not so much less in terms of maybe money while that's a contributing factor a lot of times, just less people like we can't hire enough people. There's not people don't want to. Enter into this profession because of any number of reasons. And so because of that, you know, if you're in a place like we are here where you have constant staffing and you're getting forced to work more and more or, you know they can't fill a vacancy. And so like a rig like mostly across the country, so. Here where we have constant staffing and guys get forced to work as opposed to across the country where if someone doesn't show up for work or can't work, they don't. Fill the overtime spot right? Like they just say, OK, well, if you're normally a four person staffing.
Jason
Today you're at.
Charlie
3 And so now you're having to do all the things you would normally. Do with four. Well, now you're doing it with three and it becomes more and more cumbersome and it becomes more and more, you know, hard on you and so forth. So it's always this constant doing more with less. And that just creates, you know it, it creates stress, it creates physiological, you know responses it adds to the household, you know side of things especially being forced to work and being gone, the nature of which people. You know, utilize the 911 system. Sleep deprivation is a huge one. Like how do we how do we combat the physiological effects of, you know. The calls for service. Then you know to keep our minds, right? Obviously there's a lot of big things there in the the fire service, specifically cancer and cardiovascular health and all those things and and all very important. And we have a lot of things in in place to help us in those regards. But on the mental health side of things, I mean peer support is a huge I mean it's it's a vital part of it. But the pre, you know, preventative care like what are we doing preventative care before our Members need peer support. You know, you work at a station where you get run ragged. You know every shift. And if you work like a shift like mine, we work for 4896. So you got two days back-to-back if you get up five times a night, two nights in a row, you know, and that's so or five nights or five times that first shift and you're going into your second day of your 48 and you're absolutely wiped. But guess what? You still got all your duties to do. You know that are obligations to the department and so forth. And you're just like, when do you get to rest for yourself? Like when? When can you even function? You know, like, I know as a driver because right now as an engineer, right. You drive and sleep deprivation and so forth. Like, I'm driving this fire engine and I'm exhausted. And it's like.
Speaker
Like.
Charlie
How do you combat that? You know, and how do you balance as a supervisor if you're a captain or chief or any of that? Well, obviously, you know, like you have the obligations of the department, things need to get done, you know, but how do you balance this, the need and well-being of your people, you know, while managing to get the things done that you need to get done? You know, there's got to be some liaison type communication saying, hey, I understand. You know, if I was like a captain and I gotta, you know, relate to my chief and saying, hey, Chief, I know we have things that we need to get done but. Right. My crew is absolutely wiped right now and they're no good to anybody if we don't get some rest, right? So yeah, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to get them some, some down time. Some rest, you know, like, we have a. Your son was one of our ambulance operators. Right. They they're the busiest apparatus in our town and they run more calls than anybody. And they're gone. You know, it's like they don't. Eat. How many times you like missed a meal? You've missed a meal. You missed a meal. We put our ambulances out of service just to eat, you know, because it's like, hey. You guys got to stop and you guys need to. You need to eat. You need to take a second, get your meal in. Right, go out of service. 15 minutes. Whatever. 20 minutes. Get some food. Take care of yourself. Because if we just continue to kick, that can down the. Vote. You know what good are we going to be serving the public if we? Can't you know?
Jason
Take care of ourselves. So yeah. Yeah, I like it. Absolutely. Let me let me riptor for one SEC. For context for for the listeners out there, my son used to be an ambulance operator for the Glendale Fire Department, which is where Charlie Brown works now. He now works for our department. And a lot of the things that I wanted to I wanted to touch on really quick as a newly promoted battalion. Cheap. One of the things that I will say I try to keep my eyes and and finger on the pulse width that is really tough to do is how the crews did last night and how they're feeling today and that's something if the captains can take a pulse on that and then let the BBC know instead of just the common practice is to go. The BBC doesn't know he doesn't care. Doesn't matter. They're going to work us. To. Death anyways, let me know. Let the BC know. Let the captain know. And now? That way we can specifically try to put you guys into something that that isn't as scheduled out for the day. At a minimum. Yeah. So those those are my two cents on what you're saying. We we all want to be a part of the. Solution if we can, right and that's I'm on the Captain plate. So that's what I'm like. Me right to that point.
Peter
Charlie, let's get the phone number out there. I think that's probably pretty pertinent information. So if somebody's listening and they want to reach out or they're having an issue, a crisis, what what's the best way to get ahold of your organizer?
Charlie
So the the best. Way and like you said, the most immediate kind of response that you're going to get from us is through our text line or talk text line. And it's it's very simple 833 number, right? So it's there's no charges or anything associated with it and it's 833 next rung, NXT RUNG which is 698-7864. So 833-698-7864 and I gave you can't remember that's NXTRUNG next from so. You know, we ask people just, you know, send shoot us a text message that just says a simple support text, the word support to that number that allows us on the back end kind of get the peer support team coordinated. You know, if someone was up and like they say they're on, they're on. Today. Hey, I'm on a call right now. I can't take the call. So then it goes down, right. But if someone calls and we don't answer, we ask people like just stand by like we're not ignoring you or anything like that. It's. Just. The way that the system works, and you know, obviously said we might have something going on or whatever, but you'll get an automated response saying, you know, hey, just sit tight. For a minute, we're going to give you a call back or get you a text message. We're going to get some you. Know someone on the pier team? With you if if it's, let's say or, it's not your sport, but maybe it's counseling, like you're looking like, hey, I've been doing peer sport with my own department or so forth, and I need, like, that next step. I'm trying to get. Counselor like just text the word counseling. Instead of support counseling, and then that knows that triggers us. OK, this person's looking for that next step. We have a process. To get people into counseling and we had you mentioned earlier and and there's so much to talk about, like like this mental health thing. I mean you. Could just go. On for hours and hours. Hours. But it's tough that I can find it into, you know, these small time frames, but. Our peer team, our peer support team then leads to our counseling and the counseling. We utilize the counseling Team international as one of our partners to try and contract counselors or to bring them on staff, if you will, and have them. They go through a scheduling, we get them lined up. We pay for six sessions right off the bat and then if they need. More than on with the advice of their counselor at request of the clinician saying, hey, this person would benefit from an additional, you know, sessions, we will give them another six for a total of 12 which they can utilize at any given point that there's nothing we don't tell you. Hey, you have to go at this point this no you have six sessions completely funded. Don't even worry about it. Just go. Just go get the. Help that you need. Dessert. Don't you know, maybe don't need all six? Maybe you only need 2 or whatever. But.
Peter
You have 6. We'll make sure we'll make sure we link the the number in the in. Your guys's website. Yeah, Instagram and all that. In the story, we kind of need to start winding down. Is there anything you didn't didn't share that you wanted to make sure we get out about the organization or what you guys are doing or is there anything?
Speaker
MHM.
Peter
We didn't touch on that. You wanted to touch on? No, I mean, if people want to donate, which again, we talked about.
Charlie
Chance is the biggest portion of of our you know, what we do is is donation on the link on the website which take you to our change lives campaign and that's where. Can can sign up to donate on a current basis, or a one time basis every again, every little bit helps and so. Website nownextrung.org.
Jason
OK. And do you sell swag?
Charlie
On there too, we do, we kind of changed around. We were carrying a ton of inventory that's just like super cumbersome or whatever. So we've gone to a, we've gone to like a pre sale model now. So we actually just did a pre sale, closed it, so then we'll have to we'll once that all kind of comes to you. Then we'll launch another one and try and.
Jason
That's tough thing, yeah.
Charlie
Try and manage it in that in that regard. But. Yeah, people always get. Confused. We'll go to FDIC every year and we have all these shirts and whatever and people like, oh, it's a cool T-shirt company and like, we're not. A T-shirt company. We're just. We just have cool. Shirts.
Peter
Well, Charlie, thank you for coming on. I want to applaud what you guys are doing. I think it's an amazing organization. I, I'd love the simplicity of it like, but it's needed. I mean there you guys have blown up for a reason because the guys need help and the. So much props to you doing that. I know Jason and I both know what a heavy lift it is to to. Spool up a a nonprofit and do it the right way and the legal way and all the things go along with that. It's not easy. It's a lot of work, and that's before you even get to the reason you wanted to start the foundation. So yeah, I think like I said, mad respect for what you're doing and keep up the good work. And thanks for coming on.
Speaker
M.
Charlie
Oh, thank you for having me again. Every opportunity to be able to share the mission of what we do and then to like, we're talking about networking and so forth and tie in together that it's all about bringing up the community and helping. And helping those that are in need, you know, super grateful for the opportunity. So thanks for thanks for having me.
Peter
Yeah. Oh, the pleasure is ours for sure. And we're, I mean, frankly, we're we're we, we're, we, I I live in Ventura County and Jason lives not far from you and it's a small world especially in our little neck of the woods but awesome. All right. Thank you.
Jason
Thanks for being. On.
Peter
All right, that was that was interesting to me. They I love the work they're doing. It's almost kind of like a no brainer like you're here, people doing stuff and you go well, how come? No. One else thought of. That before, like just take the peer support team. That is like what progressive fire departments do and give it to everybody. And make it a nonprofit, like that's. I don't. I'm not trying to take away from what they're doing, but it's simple. But it's working. And they they're using people and they're. Yeah, I I was impressed with that. Like, I thought that was pretty amazing.
Jason
Yeah, definitely take some of those borders away. Make it nationwide. Or bigger and then take the government funding mechanism away, which is so cumbersome and make it from donors and firefighters and and being able to give back to the fire community. I like the parallel that he drew or maybe it was the opposite of that where he said us as firefighters are going on calls all the time going. I don't know if I would have called 911 for this issue. And then when we call for help, it's like, well, I don't know if this is worth. Going to peer support or going to the next run for this issue and I thought that was pretty interesting in my head thinking, you know, is this significant to? Get help for and. Just as an aside, just I just want to reach out to everybody and go man. If. There's an issue. Catch it while. It's small because we see the issues when they get. Huge, so there's plenty of help when they're small. Right now, and that's the time to ask for the help and that's what the.
Peter
Training is about. Yeah. The other thing I would say to our listeners and our our people is put that phone number in your phone because there's a lot of red tape still at the fire department that if you need help and you want to try to get help, it can be difficult, right. I think we're getting better over. Time, but that's a that's a no brainer. Checks that number, and that's to me, is like that's an easy win for somebody that's that's looking for help right away, you know.
Jason
Yeah. Shout out to. Chris Perani, our super support lead on Ventura Fire Department and hopefully I can connect those to you because I know he's always looking for resources for our own firefighters and you know, other fire department peer supports that are listening, use those guys too. Events coming up for the foundation, I think the biggest one we have is like share rate the podcast. So that's our that's our push for this podcast. We still don't have many people who have actually taken the time to give us a review and that actually really helps us in our ratings and our standings for this. So I'll I'll just. Leave it at that.
Peter
Awesome. Thanks Jason.
Jason
Yeah. Thank you.
