Episode 30 - Julie Cart, Pulitzer Prize Winning Author of the Cal Matters Series, "Trail by Fire: The Trauma of Fighting California’s Wildfires"
Julie Cart, Cal Matters reporter talks about her award-winning 2023 series, "Trail by fire: The trauma of fighting California’s wildfires." The discussion covers a wide range of topics, including Cal Fire's reaction to the series, the importance of discussing mental health challenges in the fire service, lessons from the military, and differences between Australia and the US in fighting wildfires.
Transcript
Peter
Welcome to the Firehouse Roundtable podcast, brought to you by the Ventura Fire Foundation. I'm one of your hosts. Peter McKenzie, retired fire captain with the city of Ventura Fire Department and my co-host Jason Kay, Active Battalion Chief with the City of Ventura Fire Department. We are going to bring awareness to real issues that face. Firefighters and their families, we want you to feel like you have a seat at the kitchen table, which every firefighter knows is the heart of the Firehouse. Let's get right into the episode. All right, welcome to another episode of the Firehouse Roundtable. Today we have Julie cart with Col. matters, and we're excited to have you on you. You've you've done some pretty amazing work surrounding firefighters and wildfires and things of that nature. But before we get started, why don't you take a minute or? To kind of. Give us a quick bio and tell us about the the report, and let's do that.
Julie
Peter, I would say it's safe to say very few of your listeners know who I am. I work for Cal Matters, which is a nonprofit news site, and our job is to cover State House the. Agencies within the state and we're we put a pretty big premium on a accountable. I'm a environmental reporter and I work on long projects and I did a five part series on Trauma and PTSD within, particularly within Cal Fire. Everything I wrote was also true for all first responders, as your listeners would know. But I focus on Cal Fire because it's state. Agency so. So you know that was that was the main focus of what I did and that's where I work. It's a, it's calmatters.org. We are a nonprofit and I should say that we're in case anyone saw the stories not from our website, which is kind of the usual way people get to us our model. Is we write our stories for our site and we offer them free to our partners, which are essentially every newspaper, TV and radio station in the state. So they use it, however. They want gotcha. Gotcha.
Peter
Well, welcome to the show. Just for a little bit of background. Believe it or not, your name. And work has come up several times on our podcast because we focus on the mental health of the firefighters and more, more importantly, The Who we focus on are the people back at home. So the spouses, the kids of the firefighters and you're, we've had people on connected to Cal Fire for sure. And honestly, I think Cal Fire is a little unique. Compared to other agencies in the state, as far as like staffing and how much they work, their firefighters, those types of things which we can get into. Sure. Yeah. You'd be surprised. I think your your reporting resonated with a lot of the spouses at home who are like, hey, we are have a big problem here. Nobody's talking about it. You know, these guys are getting work to death and all these things are happening, and it's causing all these problems. And so, anyway, I thought you might find that interesting that. In our little slice of the world, you you know, your report has definitely made some good waves.
Julie
Anyhow, it's very nice to hear. You know you do this stuff. You work on something for a long time and you just send it out into the ether and. You get. The usual crank annoying evil media. We hate you. You do Cal Fire didn't like it too much, but I you know, I I hope just to start the conversation. And that's what that's what needs to happen is the. Conversation needs to start. And you, you start the conversation by acknowledging there is a problem. And calling it something I hope.
Peter
That helped. Yeah. How did you? How did you even arrive at like, hey, I'm gonna research this, and I'm gonna give this some attention like. What did that look like?
Julie
Well, it's been quiet. You you hate to say it's been quiet in, in the fire world because that ensures that something blows up or explodes. But I've been noticing for these last quiet years. But you go back to 2020 and be earlier how different the language is when you're on my side of things. We talk to fire. Commanders regularly when there's a really severe fire season, both the US Forest Service and Cal Fire would hold weekly calls and say, you know, here's the outlook, here's what's happening. This is what we're responding to. And and I've been on those things for 100 years. Every reporter in California has covered fires and understands somewhat the world of firefighting. But I started hearing these guys talk about how tired their units were, how, you know, they always complain about staffing. And I don't mean that. You know cynically, but a lot of time when you hear folks high up in organizations talk about things like that, that's a signal for budgets and hiring and things like that. This this was more of a sincere. Here our people are tired. They are stressed, they are struggling and you don't hear that a lot in the fire service, at least publicly. You know public facing. And that struck me and I was talking to my editor about that. And she said, well, let's write about it kind of easier said than done so. That I mean to answer your question, Peter, the the IT started because I started hearing. About stress stress on the line and then started pulling that thread just in my mind. What does that mean? That means that's a safety issue. It's a public safety issue. It's a safety issue for firefighters. What would? What are the implications of that? And then I just sort of Dove dove in.
Peter
Gotcha. Gotcha. And how long did this did this work take? To create how? How long did this project?
Julie
Take it took a number of months and I'm lucky to be given that kind of time. It's a it's a real luxury and in this case a necessity. Mental health doesn't get discussed in this country. There's a stigma unfortunately attached to it, which is wrong. But it is so. Add to that. What you all know about the fire service, which is the mythology, you know, brave firefighters, they do things. I run the other way. They run toward things. So it's kind of crazy and and, you know, to the imagery and the iconography about being a first responder doesn't really give people. Much room to say. I feel bad. I saw something. It makes me upset. My friend. You know all that. So I knew that I would have a I believed I would have a lot of trouble starting and it became the most interesting and surprising part of the work was I would talk to. One guy I I didn't only talk to men. I'm just gonna speak generically here. I would talk to one guy. He would hear me and kind of. Hopefully I'm just a normal person. I'm there to listen to, try to. I do want to write about it and I do want to use your name. It's very important for me to not have any anonymous. We call them blind quotes. And I had spent whatever time was necessary. If I had to go somewhere to meet him for coffee, I met him for coffee. And if I had to call three or four times, we did. And. Once that person trusted me, became like a baton, he said. Well, you know, I gotta I I used to work with the captain who did XY&Z and then I would get. Someone else and and someone else. And one I came to realize, was because they told me. They were talking to me because they all said I don't want this to happen to somebody else. I don't want anyone to feel what I feel. I don't want their families to have to have this burden on them because of me, and so that that became, you know, their extension of public service. It's not that I'm so fabulous and everyone wanted to talk to Cal Matters. They wanted this information. This help out there and that was very. Very powerful to me and it shows you what a brotherhood you all.
Peter
Have you have an interesting perspective? Arguably someone who who didn't, doesn't know all the inner workings of the fire service and all the the culture and the unwritten rules and all the things that go along with the fire service in general, which aren't relatively complex, and you dove in on like. Honestly, one of like, I don't want to say a dirty little secret of the fire service. But it wasn't. It doesn't get the spotlight that it deserves, right? So what was your perspective as? A layman, I guess we can say who doesn't. Didn't. Didn't come from within the fire service. Who then dives in? You probably had some preconceived ideas of what the fire service was before, how to compare and contrast that to what you know now and was the preconceived notions that you had then did any of that pan out or do you see it totally different now like what is? I know that's a really convoluted question, but hopefully you got. The gist of it.
Julie
I do. Those are my kinds of questions. Knock it off. I would just say that I don't think it would be unusual to to know. I don't think you have to be an insider to imagine that people in the kind of high performance type, A world that firefighters live in. Have stress and trauma and not talk about it, so it's not as you know it. It's a secret in terms of how it's dealt with and there's no public discussion of it, but I that's not surprising. It's true in in fact a lot of my early research dealt with the military and. In fact, Cal Fire and other first responder organizations do adopt some of the techniques that the military have has adopted and developed. But to answer your question, this secrecy. That's just goes hand in hand with mental health issues in this country, so that was expected. And I and I have found that to be quite true. What bothered me a little bit to the extent that I'm allowed to have. An opinion in my work. Was the the the sort of hypocrisy of? At the highest levels. The commanders and you. Know folks in Sacramento. This is we take this really seriously. We're gonna take care of you. Look out for your buddies. See something. Say something. You know, there was all this nomenclature around it, but I didn't see anything that proved they took it seriously or or meant. That they said example, I talked to lots of folks who said. You know you are encouraged or or, said told tell. Tell me about your problems, tell your your supervisor. They know that you say to your boss, you know that burn over just really got to me. That happened to those guys and I'm still. I'm having some trouble. I need to take a little time. The boss. Well groomed. Ohh, you're a gold bricker. You're a faker. Whatever you want to say. And OK, you get the time. But the boss now thinks I can't trust you. You're you're the folks on the line can't trust you. Anyone in your truck can't trust you because you're weak. Because of all those other things. So there was kind of a retribution. There's a fear that if you reported. These things, your rise in the organization, would be stymied the there's a very clear old I I'm just going to use these really cliched terms. Old Guard, new guard. You know, the old guys just said you you tend, and I do this in my world, you tend to do and think what you were, how you were trained and what you did is the. Correct thing. When I was a kid. You know, I did this or when I was trained, I did this. Pull your pants on and get back to work. And if if I did it or if I withstood that, or if it was good enough for me, how come? Why are you complaining? And. And that's that's very common organizational. Myopic. You know it, it's just wrong. But that I found that to be true. And then there's just no super structure. There's no bureaucracy that supports. Let's say you do have the courage you something happens. You have to have the the understanding that this. Is a trauma. This is a problem that has to be dealt with and that that's a whole another hoohah then you say, OK, I'm gonna tell someone about it. Then they say, OK, go get some help. What's out there? And So what I found getting back to my now belabored point about what I saw about the hypocrisy in the early days. And that's not that long ago with at least with Cal Fire. What? What I investigated there were four or five people that you could talk to. It was triage and they did not. I mean, it was very helpful, better for than none. But that doesn't give you a sense of the scope of the problem, which was much larger than four. Then you had to find. You know, there's medical workers comp, there's all these things that hoops to jump through and we can go into that if you want, but it's just the whole system was stacked once you and you heard anecdotally from other people and you just went. To hell with that. Why am I bothering? I'm just gonna go drink. I'm. Gonna drink?
Peter
Yeah, you're speaking our language. So one of the things that we do, our whole foundation and nonprofits mission is to, like, take care of, you know, firefighters when they're struggling and their families and a lot of it's related to PTSD. The problem that we see is, OK we we are having this conversation in the fire service, 100% is happening now, but it kind of stops there. So we've had people on our department that go, hey, I have a problem and it and then then the whole goat rope disaster starts where how do you act now how do we? Actually connect this person with a mental health professional who's gonna sit down, who understands their issues and get them help. And that's this. That is like, unfortunately, the gap that we need to fill in the fire service because it's not easy even with this conversation going on for the last couple of years, it's still it's far from perfect. In fact, our little fire department here just recently got a contract with the mental Health Organization that can finally get people some help. So I I hear what you're saying and I don't disagree with it at all. I think it's there's so much more to be done. I know when Jason and I got hired, we we were not having this conversation at all. And in the last five years, we started having a conversation. But the people that are running these organizations are from that old guard. And it's slowly. Turning over and I think it's, you know, it's progressing. In the direction it needs to progress, but it we're definitely not there yet that that much I can echo for.
Julie
Sure. Well, look how you even said it. You said PTSD. Cal Fire says PTS I because they think that it's nobody wants to say they have a disorder and so. Better to call it an injury so that that's OK cause you know there's injuries on the fire line all the time. Everyone has a bad back, their knees are blown out, all the problems. So that's OK because it's kind of a toughy thing. But in a disorder. Sure. Or disease. Ohh, I don't want that. So I mean that just you're starting from your back foot if that's an issue for you and then it's just as you say it's a follow through and when I started looking into workers comp which I didn't want to do. It's just a morass, but you look. At I talked to experts, you know, mental health experts in this area and they said to find a person who understands what PTSD is and to to understand how to treat trauma and even define it is, is a Herculean task. And if you're in, you know, Tiny town in California. Where a lot of these folks are based, you don't have 9 hospitals in your area where you can find, you know, a mental health care provider. It's just it, there's obstacle after obstacle after obstacle and it's it kind of it it. Well, anyway, you you said it. I mean it. There are barriers.
Peter
Quick story about workers comp fact, we were just filming a podcast yesterday with a colleague that Jason and I used to work with who had a a very crisis mode. PTSD situation for stopped working months and months and months. Workers comp denied it. All of these things. Luckily this guy pulled through and kind of came out on the other side. And we were talking about his story, and I have a mentor that got me into the fire service down in San Diego, almost very similar circumstances, you know, started going down the PTSD route a lot because a lot of these symptoms are this not the same, but they're they're for the most part, similar file, the workers. Top claim case workers comp immediately denied it and I was so angry because he easily if we would have had our systems in place and and better organization and and all the things we're talking about were there, he probably would be alive. Luckily, the guy we were interviewing yesterday, Nick, our our guy, we used to work with, he just didn't quit. He was like a Pitbull. And when they told him no, he went and barked up some other tree and eventually got the help that he needed and came out on the other side, which is like, I feel like the system, that's the systems problem. Like they killed this guy. Because of how messed up their. Their world is and workers stop all of it.
Jason
And yeah. I mean, we're we're 18 minutes into. This podcast I haven't said anything because I'm just appreciating your guys conversation. I appreciate that that you went. Out on the. Limbs Julian and and you wrote this paper and. I have a couple of questions.
Julie
No, I didn't. That's my job. That's my job.
Jason
Yeah. Well, but you were willing. You were willing to stick your hand up and go. Hey, there's a problem. Where I don't think many people were in the past. And I think with a lot of the things that you're saying, go back to, there is still a stigma in this country. And there is definitely this dividing line. And I think Peter and I are kind of. We're probably hopefully kind of the last of the generation where there still is a stigma on the mental health thing and I really am hopeful that the next generation sees it as more of, I guess, regular, I guess something that they can reach out and ask for a hand with and it's not seen as such a negative just to reach out. A couple of questions. I had for you. Did your paper talk about suggestions that you gave? What they what we can do? What the what Cal Fire specifically can do. When people come. Come and raise their hand and say there's issues.
Julie
The the last piece was intended to you know it there, there was a progression. There's a problem. Here's I I think I said it was a five part. It's that was actually four. Sorry. And I have my own PTSD. Let me tell you. But so the first part was to say. Here's the problem. The second part looked at one particular firefighter, the third part looked at someone who had suicidal ideation and really struggled and finally got help and is now one of the people who are counselors, even though they're not called that for Cal Fire and the 4th part said OK, there's a problem here. Counts affecting people. It's awful. Now what? What is the state doing? What is this agency doing? And you know you can. That you're right, Jason. So what are they? What are some options? And and what are some pathways when your conclusion is they're not doing anything and they're not. They're not doing enough. The the answer to that is you have to take a first step and they're not really doing it. And one of the. It's a very California government response. They're going to throw money at it. They're going to say, OK, one, I mean, when you get into the wonkiness of it. Some of this can be mitigated by shorter I mean shorter work weeks and not being out as long as firefighters are. And even if you're a county firefighter or city firefighter, you're going to see and experience those traumatic things. It it there may not be a function of the. Fact that you you're the 10th day on your job or something like that, but money is not always the answer. the IT is. It is showing a sincerity that is consistently. We implemented of we. We think there's a problem. We don't need some stupid reporter to tell us, you know, that there's a problem or some kind of person outside our organization. We know there's a problem. We are going to face up to this just like we do a lot of very difficult things and we are going to follow through and so. The follow through you know is to. Deal with the hours to have more counselling available, probably external to the organization, to give some anonymity and comfort for people to tell their stories to make it not you don't so that you don't have to hire a lawyer to get mental health care, which a lot of people have resorted to. I mean, it goes on and on, so the the answer is we didn't actually it's it's it's called solutions journalism. Everybody wants to to we say these horrible things are happening because that's news but we never get around to saying well here's some good stuff. Here's something that. Works. I couldn't do that. In this, because there wasn't anything, although I would say if you want to get into this part of it, there are examples of it being done well and two things, two approaches I took when I was particularly talking to state officials. And it if you I mean, to me this is about caring about people having compassion and. It it should. That should kind of like be it. But if you want to look at it from an efficiency standpoint, I talked to a business consultant. I didn't put this in the story. It just you know there's only so much. Space. But he said, you know, this is ridiculous. What does it cost to send to send a person to the Fire Academy? What is the institutional memory and training? This is so important in the fire service. You have to assume someone who's been on the job 10 years has more to offer and. Is more valuable than someone who just came out of the Academy. All things you know being equal, that experience you only get from being on the job. Do you want? Is it an efficient use of money? To have those people at the top who have all that experience who can save lives, save lives of other folks, save property, resources, etcetera. Is it smart to have them constantly leaving to go to, you know, either retire, do harm to themselves or for what? Whatever they're going, it's it's an inefficiency. In an organization, you want to keep those people, so that should that should matter to you and and the IT was very hard to get statistical information from Cal Fire. But I did. Find out that. I guess it was like 2021 or 2022, there was a 10% turnover in. Their workforce, you. You just can't have that and think that you are an efficient organization that does things well or a a program of attraction where people say, hey, I want to go there because look how great it is you when you see. People running out the door. It's it's not cool, but the other thing is and I said it to Cal Fire and it's a terrible way of presenting it. But I said how you guys you response and this is true for all state agencies is they go to the legislature and say we have this huge problem we need. More money so. Cal Fire doesn't collect those statistics. It doesn't have data, so it goes to legislature and it tells. These *** stories. Oh. And and I I know this horrible way of presenting it, but they they're making their case, but it's anecdotal. The legislature has very deep pockets and they pull out tons of money, especially for firefighting. But they say, wait a second. Show us that there's a problem. Give us the data. What are the numbers? Cal? Fire doesn't have it. So they it's very hard for them to go to legislate to legislators in California who are often very sympathetic to any firefighting need. If they haven't made their case, you know it's just they. So they a lot of those things have to happen. They it they need to, they need to kind of make it a business model where they say we're taking care of our people. We care about them. You know all that stuff but you're my employee I want you to stay on the job. I want you to be healthy. It's the same reason that corporations, you know, have some anti smoking programs and weight loss and all that not because they love their people so much, but because they're on the damn job and they're working. And you know, I think that's one way of looking at it.
Peter
So you think it's a failure of of the administrators at Cal Fire to? Put some teeth behind this and and crunch some numbers and and present the case and and put some effort behind it. Is that essentially what you're kind of what you're the the path you're going down.
Julie
Well, it's it's, you know, my training is not to make a statement. Like that I. I find people who say it and then I put it in the story, but I I I think the conclusion and again this was a year or so ago and I haven't done the follow-ups that I intend to do but. You know, it definitely was not in place. There was I, I agree. I mean, I think they said we're going to look into this and this is this is sure a problem, but there's you can't be sure you you cannot change something when you don't understand what the problem is. And yeah they haven't done that.
Peter
Yet yeah, I would say. A lot of other departments hire Cal fires firefighters because their schedule is different. They work harder, they get paid less. All those things, and they all know it. And that's not shocking to me. That you found a 10% turnover. Of their people. Which in the fire service is unheard of because most people get the fire department job. They stay there for 30 years and then they retire like it's not normal to have that kind of turnover. But you mentioned you mentioned one thing early on in our conversation and you said that Cal Fire was not happy with your report for obvious reasons, like you were, you were definitely shining some light on some, some problems. What? Speak to that. What? What did they intentionally do anything? Was it. Just a feeling. You got were they were they was there some? Various actions against it, like what did that look like, what was that?
Julie
No. Yeah. Oh, you mean the guys who came to the door with the pulaskis? No, no, they were. I mean, I don't want to project I I think it is embarrassing and it should it. It should have been embarrassing for ignoring a problem, not having the problem. That's. That's where we differ. I don't think they should have been ashamed or embarrassed at all that this problem exists. It underscores the difficult work these folks do and what we're putting them through. And on all of our behalf. So that kind of makes the case for, you know, brave firefighters, aren't they wonderful? Which is the way they like to portray things. And it's it's accurate. But I think they were embarrassed because I came to them at the end. Of course, as as I had gathered, you know, I don't. Information and and kind of presented my findings and they didn't have any data. So you talked to the Cal Fire chief and he I said you know you don't collect data on suicide. It's yet you're agreeing that it is a crisis. How do you know it's a crisis based on what? So I they didn't like that. And I I I I understand that I was just told by some of the folks I talked to that that they were unhappy. And I'll leave it at that. I don't want to. Out anybody. But it's it's not surprising. I don't care if they're mad at me. It would be nice if things change.
Peter
Sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know. I can't imagine they would be happy with that report, but honestly, I think the report was good. I mean it it it did what you wanted it to do, which was shine some light, start the conversation and start heading in a different direction. Do you have any data or? Information that indicates it's getting better that that your report made a difference, or anything along those lines.
Julie
The answer, the quick answer is no. I was up in Boise a couple months ago when I was at Nipsey and in a in that big building where they pack all the parachutes at at the federal agency. And I was we were in a A just a big room and every every room. In any kind of agency like that, there's a bulletin board and every bulletin board and every fireplace has. Look out for these things and it had a mental health call this number and and that's not because I wrote anything, but I I am I do know that there's more awareness of that and on the federal side you know this is what unions are for. They're as you know the the Fed the federal firefighters. And the floor service and interior and other agencies are trying to get raises, and part of it is they need to be paid commensurate with the work they do, but also to incorporate this kind of mental health access and things like that. And. So that, that's helpful. And I I do know that there were a couple of pieces of legislation that made it through that should help things a little bit.
Speaker 4
Hi I'm Austin folk, an engineer with the Ventura City Fire Department. I'm also on the board of the Ventura Fire found. An organization that supports firefighters and their families, the foundation produces this podcast as part of our mission, I worked with the foundation because I was witnessed to the help that it was able to provide to my family. The foundation needs your help. First, please subscribe and rate this podcast on your podcast platform. This helps us get a higher ranking. And more visibility for the show. Second, if you support the podcast and the foundations work, please consider donating. Every dollar helps us support firefighters and their families. There is a link in the show notes, or you can donate through the website at www.venturafirefoundation.org. Thank you for listening.
Peter
Did you research any of the impacts on the families or was it mainly just on the firefighters themselves? Was there component?
Julie
Well, the firefighters told me I wasn't successful. Let's say at at talking to some families, and I had to. We have such a narrow mission sometimes that Cal matters. We're so wonky and you know. To the weeds on things. But I I had to keep my eye on. The actual state employees, but I'm a taxpayer. I'm responsible for that person. I mean, that's that's a person who works for me, or at least on my behalf. So if they're not doing their job and and part of it is family, then that's a problem. In other words, the the time away from. Home the self medicating with drugs, drinking, and to my great surprise. But it shouldn't be ***********. All the things that happen, you know, guns it down, rabbit holes on on the Internet and things like that where people go to kind of lose themselves or to just zone out, whatever that may be. Whatever your choice is, that means those are solitary things. You're not including your spouse, you're not including your children. I heard a lot of stories about that, you know, fire Captain telling me 80% of the the guys, men and women in his Firehouse in one year. We're getting divorced. Mean that's just. That's it's a small sample, but I think if you I I think it probably carries through many, many, many other things. And again looking if looking at this from just sort of a hard callous viewpoint, if you think about people who are carrying that kind of trauma or anger. They're not doing their jobs well, then probably they're making bad decisions. And when I make a bad decision, usually I get embarrassed. I spell something wrong or I get something wrong. Nothing. It. It's not the end of the world, you know, it's not good for me, but I don't like it. But it's not the same as a fire. Commander making a decision that doesn't just impact his or her own well-being, but groups with you public resources. You know, all those other things. The implications are very big. And one of when I mentioned that. A really good resource for information on this stuff is the military. They're the ones who found out who, who have changed a lot of things because of the families I came from, military, family, two brothers and my mom said, you know, my brother Mike was delivered by a dermatologist, my brother Alan, a dentist. You know, if you. On base now there's an accommodation for ohh, I guess your families there. We need women's healthcare and now more and more women in the military. So the military understood the same things we talked about, which is we spend all this dough to train these people. They're carrying these especially now extremely expensive equipment and. You know, this is very lethal stuff. We want them to do their jobs well and they were noticing. All the people who were leave. Thing and the families didn't like to travel and drag their kids to Germany. And then the Philippines and all that stuff. And they now have some methods to deal with that. They're very focused on families again because it cost them money for people to have problems, to be off the job or to. You know, get out of the service because of all that stuff. So the military was really interestingly. A a good. Laboratory for this stuff and some models, and for example, especially special forces. This is similar to small units in firefighting. They do stuff together, absolutely rely on each other for their own safety and the safety of everyone else, and to do to complete their mission and things are different now. It's like fire. The fire behavior is so off the charge, the size of the fire is the ferocity the you know, all the stuff, not understanding it's and. And it's it's analogous to what's happening in wars, and those guys now. Come out of like a unit of 10 Navy seals. They killed a kid. They accidentally did this or they did that. And, you know, it's war, but it's very difficult for them. And and I'm not saying that it it, it's the idea that your job. Is inherently dangerous. It's it. There is. There are horrible things and you have to do them and we don't want to lose you. And so they have come up with a lot of tech. They do yoga, they do special breathing. They talk about things and it makes it. It has made a difference when. And you know, a marine or a Navy SEAL comes in to talk to a group of people. They're like, oh, well, if that guy can get on the floor and stretch or say, oh, I'm on a pillow, then that maybe it it it's more, it's more your peer group. But anyway that the military is very. Understanding of the role. Of families and keeping that harmony and keeping families together.
Peter
There's a lot to be learned for sure, and obviously the fire service is modeled after. It's a paramilitary organization question. We asked this question to a lot of people that come on the podcast, mainly people connected to families and and and therapists who who are culturally competent, who have practices around. Counseling, firefighters and their families. And you I'm very interested and I'm interested in your personal opinion, knowing what you know now with the research you did and the, you know, the view that you have of the fire service and all these issues, if you could do. You had all the power in the world to do one thing for Cal Fire or for the fire service in general to make this better. That would have the biggest impact. What would that one thing be? And and I'll share with you what what the answers we get from other people as well. But I am curious because you have, you know arguably a very unique perspective.
Julie
There's so many ways to come at that, but I'll I'll take the the easy one. You have to talk about these things. That's, that's the big thing. They they need. It needs to be not, you know, a 30 minute seminar in when you're going through training. It needs to be talked about. All the time. Firefighters constantly talk about lessons learned after actually, you know, we you you look at a situation where something happened. It's very important to the fire service. Let's discuss that and take it apart and see what we could have done differently. Why not include? Even if it's just goofy, you sit around and say, oh, I felt bad about that. I mean, yes, but if you're your longest serving, most experienced person said, yeah, that I, I I really, I couldn't stand to see, you know, that kid's house burned down and he was crying about it or I mean that's the probably. Least serious thing, but you know it it it's about discussing it. So it's not a secret. And of course then you have to do a number of things, but you you it has to. Be out in the open. Gotcha.
Peter
Interesting. Yeah. So better awareness better, you know, open communication about. So you know what the number one thing is that people say really took us by surprise. The number one answer we get work less. Yeah, work less. And and that, yeah, that that resonates with me. And I'm sure Jason too, because all of the things, all of the bad things that firefighters, military, police officers all deal with, you know, you it's I don't want.
Julie
That's what all those guys told me. That's yeah.
Peter
To say it's maybe it's manageable in small doses, but if you have it coming at you. So 25 out of 30 days a month, you don't get to go home. You're in all these high stress situations like it makes it that much worse. And I tend to agree, like just work, work work, half of what you work now, you know in some departments like Cal Fire that would still be less than what you you you signed up to work, right? That it would make a big a big difference, but I I don't discount awareness and what you brought up as well cause and there is no one solution to this problem. If there was we would have solved. It already like. It it's very complex and it takes. There's a lot. It's a it's a government, right? It's like there's a lot of it's. It's impossible to make the government change on a dime and do anything right so.
Julie
Anyhow, no, that that makes perfect sense. If if people go to the series and they look at some of the videos, that's what they talked about. I mean, that was my. You're right, that was my particular spin on it, but they all said. I cannot. If you have 10 days off. Seven days are in your cave of you know, whatever. However you process it, and then three days, you, you you know you go throw the ball with your kid. So definitely, definitely and. But my point I'm gonna. Sacker, bring up my point again. You know, when they're home, at least they it it's just you at least understand what you're experiencing. You're not a weirdo. You're not weak, you're not defective. You say, OK, I'm experiencing trauma from this thing. Perfectly normal. How will I process it? Maybe you know, maybe it's beer, I don't know, but at least that's the start. And then when you are home and when you get out of the station and you're not. Marinating and all this stuff that you guys work for, you know, work with then at least you have some tools. And I think it's also important just to under score what you said about it it it's a, it's a difficult job. You see a lot of really bad stuff that you wish you could Unsee. You're not going to be able to. And it's hard work and it's stressful that will not be taken away if you work a four day work week. Those four days are going to have all that stuff in it, but I it it's like you say it's it's decompression you got.
Peter
Get away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jason, you you haven't said much. We've been running this conversation. What? Do you got? What do you got?
Jason
Well, the, the human, the human.
Julie
Oh, you're a blabbermouth.
Jason
Work brain needs to be turned off and I think we're saying that I think Julie is saying that I think that most of the people we interview at some point you need sleep and you need a break. You need to be able to go home and not be preparing for the. Next call and I. Think that's that kind of sums up? Everybody's side, some of the stuff you said today was really interesting when when Peter asks, what do you think is the one thing? I don't think a lot of, some of the people, including myself, if I was asked that. Question. I don't think I would say work less because it's not allowed. Like, how is that even an option when when they're all mandates it's it's allowed. Maybe if you're picking up shifts, but most of the people who are ready to work less and who are ready to have some kind of a mental health crisis, they would be home if they were allowed. And when you're told you're not going home and you. We will be staying tomorrow. That is. I mean, such a rut. I think that that how do you how do you get away from that? How do you get out of it? And and you guys both touched on if you call in sick or if you go if you say if you raise your hand and you say I need a break. The stigmas right there, and you're not helping out the department. You're not helping out the quote UN quote brotherhood. And you're still seen as a lot of a lot of guys, I'd say more than 50% are going to look at you and say you're making my life harder. Now do your part so. It's just part of the.
Julie
Because it has to be. Backfilled. Yeah, you have to backfill, yeah.
Jason
Right. It's just part of the conversation. I really like Julie. When you said when you're angry or upset, you make bad decisions. And that's very true. And I think as a paramedic, that's huge doctors, don't you know, get 24 hours straight and then let alone as a fire commander. Like you're saying making bad decisions for. You know, hundreds of people potentially who are on a who are on a significant fire. Earlier you talked about PTS I versus PTSD. One of the therapists I said PTS I once. And she said don't say PTS I because then I can't. Diagnosis. I diagnose you PTSD is something that I can treat and diagnose and it's.
Speaker
You know it's.
Jason
Actually a diagnosis where PSI is more. Is it a sprained brain? Is it no big deal, or is it a big deal and and then you have to go down that rabbit hole to finally I want to talk about Cal Fire is huge. Our little fire department is small and I do think that we've made a lot of headway versus what Cal Fire is going through, what we've talked about. With the Dear Chiefs podcast lady. I don't think we deal with some of the stuff that they deal with when it comes. To the Cal Fire. Families that they're dealing with, but I also we are far from perfect. We see departments around us that are doing better and departments around us that are doing worse. But I think Cal Fire specifically has a huge epidemic of this and and all of the issues we're talking about their peer support team isn't close to them. Because it's just a huge department. When you say we're going to implement something positive for the guys, you're talking about thousands and thousands of people as opposed to 100 or a couple 100. When it comes to a smaller city. Like like we deal with so. Those are kind of my comments and my the things I've been reserving for when when you guys took a breath. So I appreciate you letting me kind of talk about that. The other one was you talked about the forced service as a as a federal fire department. That was my first job that came through the Forest Service and you, you reflected and reminded me that I think I was making. 750 an hour when I was in the Forest Service. And then if you you were called a forestry technician because they don't want to have to pay you as a firefighter. So if you went to a fire, they paid you an extra. Buck an hour because it was hazard pay. So that was just just a memory, and I'm sure they're nowhere. Close to being caught up but. Yeah. I mean, the nuance, this conversation is great. We could talk about this for for hours. And hours.
Peter
Julie, I got a question about your Pulitzer Prize that you won. So we've never had someone, we've never had someone on the podcast that's won a pula surprise before. So what was that for? And what happened after you won the prize? Like, did everything change or what was pre and post Pulitzer look like for you?
Julie
Oh, that was when I was working at the LA Times and I was with my colleague Bettina Boxall, who covered the floor service. This was back when journalism was healthy and we had. I was a public lands writer. And, you know, we had specialists doing all kinds of things. We and we decided to look at why, how, how the United States. So now this is the federal side not. The state side how? How we fight fires in this country and because we were in Iraq. We started looking, we saw the the analogy that we could make between how we fight wars, we outsource it, we higher contractors, we throw a lot of money at it. We throw technology that may or may not be successful aerial firefighting. Various things like that. So we decided to and we broke it. That's the five part series, not this last one. And so we did, we looked at particular fire that year and used that as a jumping off point to talk about various things and. Part of it was how how flammable, particularly Southern and Central California, with canyons and and you know, no dispensable space and ingress and egress and stuff like that, kind of wonky stuff we wrote about Petina wrote about cheap grass. I went to Australia to. Right about how Australia approaches fires and and they're the great researchers in the wildfire space. They're they're. And it's an interesting I don't know if you've all talked about it, but it's really amazing what. They do and it's. It's it it, you know, we have. Well, I'm married to an Australian. My husband is. So I I understand the culture and very similar the climate, similar similar trees in some cases lots of. Eucalyptus etcetera. Anyway, so I wrote about that. And then. We I did a story about aviation and learned that. To some people, retardant drops are called. CNN drops it. You know, let's well, you have to appear to be doing something because another secret entire fighting is sometimes you can't do much. You know you you cannot stand in front of a 100 foot flame length. You you will not do that. You know. So a lot of the stuff is waiting for weather and things like that. So you've got to be you have to. Look like you're doing something to save my house because I'm a taxpayer and you know. So we mainly we mainly looked at a lot of money and that involved public getting public records and it was pretty amazing. You know, you'd like to be the person who writes something that shines a light on and and then then it gets fixed. Well, there was sort of arm waving in Congress and you know. Again, people hating us. That's just it and that it you know it it's I think the people in the fire service know the fire service. And they know. All the you know, all where all the the bodies are buried, so to speak, and and know what could fix it. But it's a very complicated world to try to explain to others. And so I wouldn't say that anything happened. I mean, my life changed a little bit, but we don't care. I mean, who cares? But I I think that in terms of. Understanding more efficiencies. Safe. What's more safe stuff? It's OK sometimes to to let things burn. You can't say that because people go crazy. You know, we can cut some trees. It's alright. You know, our watersheds are still OK. So everybody knows that it's it's it's that's a whole other thing. But you know, there's some things everyone understands, but. Some reason they never get traction.
Peter
Yeah. What? What the? As a journalist? What changed? Winning the prize. What? What changes for your professional life?
Julie
Every time I spell someones name wrong, everyone says, uh, who does she think she is? She thinks she's so hot she can't even spell. You know, you, you, you, you're. A little bit of a target. No, there's nothing. Absolutely nothing bad about it. And it it's. I've done some travel because of it and. It's not a bad thing.
Peter
Awesome. One follow up question I I am, I don't know anything about how Australia fights wildfires briefly, what is the?
Julie
The difference is culture. Here we say I pay my damn taxes. I want a fire truck and my, you know, my driveway. And if I live in the Lake Tahoe basin and I have a shake roof and a Redwood deck and a bunch of firewood, you know, stacked against my house and I haven't had created a defensive defensible space, and I have. Find stuff all around. It's not. It's not my fault. You got to come and help me. Australians are not like that. Maybe. Yet they don't sue. They they are from kind of a culture. Of course. They're newcomers. They're not the original people, but they got their. Their bootstrappers are saying, OK, no one's going to come to save us. What do we have to do? And also it's a nation of 20 million people. There's. I live in Los Angeles. There's 20 million people here, you know, so there's not. And it's a huge continent, very fire prone so. Quickly, they don't even pretend that they're gonna get to you. They what they do is they found through research and science that people actually trust. It's another difference. It they said people more people die running from fires trying to get away, particularly too late. Thinking they can outrun fires than if they stay in this in their home. So fires, you know, looking for something to burn. If you go in your house and you prepare externally with a defensible space, your house is a very safe place. It is extremely frightening for a minute or two and the fire burns over you and then goes on. If you've prepared your home properly, they are the first ones to talk about screens in the attic. The the finer mesh so that embers don't come in embers going ahead and doing, understanding that you're sitting, you know, in a town that's 20 miles away and you're thinking too bad about those poor guys. And that fire is now upon you because of the wind. So they train people. To defend their homes if they want to, and they do train them and they scare the crap out of them and tell them, you know all. These scary things. And they go through stuff and then. They say. OK, it's it's it's called leave early or stay and defend if you're not willing to do that if you're not capable, if you don't want to get in your car and. Get out of there when? When you're advised to do so because we're not going to be there and they also have a a real real shortage of water available for fighting fires. So you know, in in these discrete areas. So people actually and it has the largest volunteer firefighting force in the world and they're very well trained and very experienced. So the difference is they are able to say these kind of scary messages that you couldn't say in the United States, no, firefighting for, you know, you're in your town, you say, oh, we can't help you. Sorry. That doesn't fly. No, no, no. And they do that. And they also empower people. And they're on farms.
Peter
Yeah, that's not. Yeah, that ain't gonna fly. Yeah.
Julie
You know or or ranches and they all. Do this stuff for themselves for the most part, and and so they're they're I'm I'm generalizing. But we're talking about Bush fire. So, you know, people living up in the Sierra understand fire and take care of themselves in that way too. But it's it's that's, you know, these are people who they they.
Peter
Sure, sure, Sir.
Julie
Mainly they studied it, they understand it, they underground wires so they don't have the utility line fires that we have. And when they have something which they recently had. That almost. I mean, it was just an unbelievable summer, our winter, their summer of wiping out wildlife and hectare after hectare was just a come to Jesus with fire they have. A A colonial investigation, they get together and they say, what the hell just happened? On a federal level, and then they do stuff, you know, they have blue ribbon commissions that instead of saying, you know, they put these things out and people don't, you know, give it all this time. And there's input from scientists and all this stuff firefighters and and all this, all these experts. And then and then it goes to the government and the government doesn't say, well, you know, thanks for sharing and pitch that away. They actually implement thing, they do things. And that's the difference. There's a disconnect we, you know, they study it and then put it in place and we are because of. Our legal system, because of the expectations of people that always going to be someone to save us, sometimes from ourselves and. Own, you know, stupid headedness, so different, different.
Peter
Very, very yeah, very insightful. I mean, why would we assume that the government would do something with something they spend a bunch of money? On so, yeah, yeah.
Julie
What a fun exercise.
Peter
Yeah. What's next? You obviously, like you studied wildfires. You studied Cal Fire and PTSD like. What's next on the horizon? Anything related to the fire service or are you in a different spot now?
Julie
Well, I just wrote. 10,000 words on floating offshore wind. If you're interested in that, but.
Peter
I did just read an article I did just read an article about it up in Morro Bay that they're fighting it and and it's like 40 miles off offshore or something. Anyway, not to go down that rabbit.
Julie
You know, I mean.
Peter
Hole but so.
Julie
Yeah, it is. Yeah, you don't get far from fire in California. Yeah, I'm an environmental reporter, and you know, it's it's the gift that keeps on giving. I mean, we we will always have it. I've spent a lot of time lately writing about the way California has a sense of technology to the rescue. You know, it's going to be a it's going to be drones. It's going to be all of this.
Peter
So you're.
Julie
Instantaneous mapping and. You know, and that's another example of the old days. You know, we would throw a map on the hood of a truck and we instead of now using iPad or stuff like that, there's some of it that is without a doubt. I mean, in terms of weather data, topography, fires and fuels and all that stuff. Really, really, you know, in the moment of use. But I think we do tend to want to fight fires at a distance, especially wildland fires and. With machinery and things like that, and there's plenty of companies who want to make some dough, you know? Believe me. So I I the the reliance on technology and where that's going to take us, if it's, you know, useful things or useful things. But it's it's it's just like the military goes back to what? We wrote about at the times that we look to that instead of. It's just, you know, it's ground pounders, boots on the. Ground it's also being again having that conversation of saying we are not going to stop this fire, we're going to herd it, we're going to, we're going to say, OK, good, let's let it go over here and burn somewhere. So we don't have to do a fuels reduction project or something like that, so.
Peter
Well, Julie, I applaud the work. You did it. I think it was very impactful it it started a conversation that is hopefully the the beginning, but yeah, great job on that. Thank you for coming on the show. We're we're happy to have you and and it was awesome to like get the behind the scenes kind of insight with the report and the the articles you wrote. So thank you very much.
Julie
Well, it's been my pleasure. And once you get into that, as you all do, understanding the problems it, it's just hard to let go of it. I mean I I do have people contact me from time to time and there's not a hell of a lot I can do other than say I I feel I feel for you and maybe direct them, but. And I'm sorry it's still. A problem I.
Peter
Yeah, well, I don't. It's.
Jason
Think no and I think the biggest benefit that your your article did is just having conversation and and getting it started. Now we just need some follow through, right. So I appreciate you coming on the show as well and and having conversation about it.
Peter
Going away anytime soon.
Julie
Thanks Jeff.
Speaker
Well, that was a.
Peter
Very insightful conversation just to hear, like, you know, an outsiders perspective. A lot of times reporters aren't the most popular people to the fire service because a lot of times they get stuff wrong. I think for the most part, you know, she hit the nail on the head when it. Comes to the the. Problem that exists. What do you think?
Jason
Yeah, as much as she's an outsider, she had a lot of first hand knowledge of the fire service. You can tell she dove in to get the experience and the knowledge that it takes her right. A paper with a lot of information like it was, it was really good. I really liked her quote when you're angry. You make bad decisions. I think that says a lot towards PTSD and and people who have been at work too long, overtired and upset at stuff, and. Going to make bad decisions and as a firefighter, that's. A bad thing for sure.
Peter
Yeah, even if she didn't get everything 100% right in her report, I think overall it it started the conversation and it it went down a path that is positive. And yeah, so I I was glad we brought on the show. I think it was, it was helpful.
Jason
It's definitely hard to take on Cal Fire. That's a big ask. Those guys are a huge agency with a ton of money, so I I applaud her for, for, for taking on that battle.
Peter
Yeah, for sure. All right, Jason, till next time.
