Episode 21 - Oxnard Fire Chief Alex Hamilton on behavioral health, sleep deprivation, peer support, and taking care of his firefighters.

Oxnard Fire Chief Alex Hamilton, considered one of the most forward-thinking chiefs in the country, covers a wide range of important topics, including behavioral health, sleep deprivation, call volume, peer support, the value of networking, Movember, grantwriting, advice for firefighters looking to promote, how the COVID pandemic led to greater collaboration among fire departments,  and his vision for a first responder wellness center in Ventura. 

Transcript

Peter

Welcome to the Firehouse Roundtable podcast, brought to you by the Ventura Fire Foundation. My name is Peter McKenzie. I'm one of the hosts. I'm retired fire captain with the city of Ventura Fire Department.

Jason

And I'm Jason Kay. I'm an active fire captain also with the Ventura Fire Department.

Peter

And we are. Excited that you are going to spend some time with us at the kitchen table learning about Firehouse issues that we're trying to bring awareness to.

Jason

Thanks for joining us. As we discussed the issues of being a firefighter both on and off duty and how it affects us.

Peter

Let's get right to it.

Speaker

All right, welcome.

Peter

To another episode of the Firehouse Round Table, excited about our guest today, which is Chief Alex Hamilton of the Oxnard Fire Department. So everybody knows who Chief Hamilton is, and a lot of the work that he's done in the mental health world. But we're excited to to talk to him. Get kind of intimate with the work he's doing regarding mental health, which is a big passion of ours as well, and we're excited to have you on the show. So Jason, Alex, welcome.

Alex

Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Peter

It's good. Yeah, yeah.

Jason

I appreciate it. Pete, I'm excited too to see some of the differences between our fire department and Oxnard Fire Department and where we're at and how we can kind of, you know, we always train together and work together. So it'll be good to hear, you know, our neighbors next door.

Peter

Yeah, for sure we might. We might get a few digs in maybe or yes or no, I don't know. We'll see what happens.

Speaker

How are you?

Peter

So, Chief, why are you take a minute and? Give us a quick bio just for our listeners who don't know who you are just kind of. Who you are, what you're about, that kind of thing.

Alex

Yeah, no problem. So I grew up in Australia, so definitely not an Oxnard accent that I have. And so left my wife is she grew up in Los Angeles, we met in Australia 20 years ago, 20-3 years ago. I guess moved here 20 years ago this year, actually. Excuse me, 21 years ago this year and I did a couple of years as a volunteer firefighter in Australia. And so that's sort of what got me interested and believe it or not, Oxnard was the very first Test I took tested a. A bunch while going through the process with Oxnard, but ultimately this is where we landed and sort of from there I just signed up for every different position I could within the department and have slowly sort of well not so slowly I guess, moved up the ranks to now be chief and so appointed to the chief position just over three years ago.

Peter

Nice, nice. Well, there's a lot there to talk about. Just from knowing kind of your story and and how. I think there's some unique nature to how you promote it cause you did a lot of work as a fireman. If I recall right, like on the grant side and you were doing a ton. Of like administrative. Type work, which let's let's talk about that real quick, since since we're talking about it, it's not typically normal in the fire service to have a a firefighter, which is like the the entry level rank. Doing administrative work in the you know up. Where all the chiefs are. Tell us a little bit about that, cause it's a little unique to. You and I. Think kind of like probably got you where you are faster and I'm interested. In your viewpoint.

Speaker

With the.

Alex

We've added that I I think you know the work I did in grants really did sort of put my put my career on on that trajectory, but. You know I it it was kind of it. It's weird how it happened. I was prior to getting hired in the fire service. I was actually working on a grant for. Our Unified School District. I was a chef before I was a firefighter, and so I was actually working with a program called chefs. In the classroom. And it was all grant funded. And so when I got hired in in Oxnard, I asked about grants and and it was kind of like, oh, we we didn't. You know, we've never been really successful. It doesn't really work out. And so and and I actually got told no a couple of times, no, we don't need your help. No, no, we're fine. And that always motivates me a little bit more. I I hate getting told no. So started getting into grant writing. It was actually the the the Oxnard Firefighters Association actually sent me to grant writing school. You know, this is back in the time when Oxnard didn't have the resources that it does today. And so it it was kind of a unique position because it really wasn't. We didn't have a lot of administrative support. You know, just just in terms of staffing and everything else, so started to take on bigger and bigger roles and then found through grant writing, we were able to establish a bunch of a bunch of different programs and and get things that the city wouldn't have been otherwise able to afford. So it actually worked out really well. And then from the support that the unit. Gave me. I ended up moving into. I was became secretary of Treasurer for the for the Union and and. Those sort of. Those two things sort of went hand in hand. I think, you know that one of the biggest things, you know, done a lot in the grant. Well, but I think the biggest thing and certainly one of my proudest accomplishments I guess would be that what what we did in in terms of the behavioral health stuff and that all started with the grant and obviously sent us down a a whole rabbit hole that I haven't resurfaced from, but that was one piece and it was all tied in with with me being. Union representative and sort of making sure trying trying to take care of of our personnel's welfare, I guess.

Peter

I I want to get into that side of it for sure, but let's let's continue to beat this up for a little bit. What advice do you have? So from my perspective, at least in our department, you have. I don't know, maybe 1015% of the guys do the majority of the volunteering. The majority of the work I would have guessed it's probably similar in Oxnard. And it it I mean it, there's a disproportionate weight of extra work that falls on the shoulders of the people who are willing to. Raise their hands. And and volunteer and a lot of the times. That obviously affects your your ability to promote for sure, like if you're doing things you know, volunteering and whatnot. But I've often given the advice like. You don't have to do everything if if if those 10 or 15% of the department do. Everything they they become very diluted. It's not like they can specialize and focus on one thing and I don't know what that was like at Oxnard. Obviously, we know your reputation speaks for itself when it comes to the grants, but what can you speak to that a little bit? Would it be better to have those 10 or 15% of the guys each focus? On one thing, or. Do the way we normally do it, which is we only have a small group of people who volunteer and they do everything. What are your thoughts on that?

Alex

Yeah, well, you know. It's like the 8020 rule, 20% of the folks, the 80% of the work or whatever. And and I I don't know that that's necessarily the case in Oxnard, but I I will say I think on some level. Folks that are interested in taking on these extra responsibilities just have broad interest, right? Just have a maybe a high curiosity or something, so end up taking on that. That was certainly the case for me is. I I found it all very interesting and exciting and wanted to learn and and wanted to and but but arguably did spread myself too thin and and arguably still. Do on some level. And so I think it's. It I think part of that's driven by personality to a large extent. But but I would also say I think there is a. Lot of value in. Spreading that wealth and and like you said, really trying to specialize on on a few things rather than trying to do everything all at once and and cause I do, we have, as I'm sure Ventura does, personnel that take on. A lot of different things and end up getting getting themselves spread a little thin and and and oxnard's the same way we do have we we have a very motivated workforce in Oxnard though, so we do have. Folks, that really are really follow a A, you know, a a single passion, whether it's on the apparatus or it's on PPE or it's on, you know, you name SCBA's where they they will. Sort of really. Specialize in that in that area and and to a large extent. We need it particularly as. A small agency. Our venture is no different. We we need folks to to jump in and take on these things, cause there's just not enough staff to go around to to handle everything that needs to be done because a small agency is responsible for so many things and we only.

Speaker 4

Have so many staff.

Jason

So with your grant writing history that that you kind of bring to the table now that you're kind of at the top position of the fire department, do you have a group that you have working for you that specifically right grants?

Speaker

Yeah, yeah.

Alex

So the engineer barons does a lot of the grant writing for us, and so he's sort of taken on that. Role taking over that role from me, I still have my hand in it a little bit and certainly drew is one of those guys that that takes on a lot, you know, he's he's, he's definitely one of the one of the 20%. And so sometimes he gets a little spread, a little thin. I'll jump in where I can to help out. We've just gone through some staff transition in the office, but ultimately, yeah, there there are a couple of other people that that sort of do the fiscal side and then the the grant management piece which which I didn't realize how much is involved in the grant management side. When I first started writing grants. And so we do have some folks in the office. But engineer burns? He he's he was out on the East Coast early this year doing the the peer reviews, so reviewing grants and scoring them, which just. Get you get to. Well, you get to see a lot of bad grants. But you also. Get to see a lot of really well written grants. And so good experience and obviously you get to network while you're out there. And so so that that's another way that that sort of we we get involved, but engineer Burns has a lot of the heavy lifting on.

Jason

I'm sure that's super educational for him to see when he goes to those things and helps him write grants that end up getting awards. I also see his name a lot when I do use our world. His name comes up a bunch, so I'm sure he's spread around the department and one of the curious guys like I am that you're. Talking about earlier. Can you tell us some of the smaller grants you got and then maybe some of the big ones that you've received over the years?

Alex

Yeah, what?

Jason

Getting equipment specifically or end up getting apparatus or whatever you got it for.

Alex

So the the biggest ones, just in terms of dollar values, the staffing grants, so we we just got our, I don't even know. I think it's our 4th or our. 5th Safer Grant earlier this year. That's gonna allow us to start a second paramedic squad in the city. As I know Ventura just got a big staffing grant as well and so those ones are always in the millions of dollars. And so ours is for six personnel vehicles as well. We we received a ladder truck back in 2014. I want to say a Lightner unit. Vehicles are definitely the most competitive grants to win, but then we've done smaller ones. I was actually just reminded the other. Day on it was. It was through State Farm and it was a it was a Facebook sort of popularity contest of of sorts where you had to vote and that was for a $25,000 grant. That we ultimately end up making some some public education videos around ocean safety, which again was just sort of a fun little experience in those videos, ended up being very popular. So and then sort of everything in between where it's it's urban. So it's a rescue. Training or it's? I'm trying to think what else smoke detectors and smoke detector installations is a big one. We're having a big problem with that in Oxnard, just structure fires with no working smoke, smoke alarms in their homes. That would be another big one then, and the the behavioral health. Grant that we got to start. Our peer support program. That was a $250,000 grant. I think way more money than we needed to set up our program, but it it was great because we got to, we really got to do it right.

Peter

Chief quick question, you mentioned the the networking that comes along with. Rubbing shoulders in this grant world and I don't think that the fire service gives enough. Bandwidth to networking and maybe it's just wasn't the circles I was running in and maybe I'm wrong, but like in the business world like networking is like a big part of it. And who who you know, and the the connections you make and. All that speak. To the networking and the fire service cuz and and do you think it's helped you in your career back here in Oxnard?

Alex

Without a doubt, I think networking is is critically important and. I I don't know. Like I didn't see myself as a sort of a networking person. I guess before I got into the fire service, but certainly learned very. Quickly that, that, that's. Just how you get things done. But also I think sometimes within the fire service, you know like the best fire department in the world. And I'm sure you guys would say the same thing about Ventura, you know. And so I. Think sometimes we can get a little bit. Myopic like we do it. The best way to some extent. And there are other ways to do things, so again, it was sort of speaking to that curiosity that we mentioned earlier, a little bit of curiosity, but also. Trying to get the right answers and so in grants. It was absolutely it took me a couple of years to figure out how to get to those panels to do the panel reviews for grants, but then learning about cancer in the fire service. So I reached out and now I've got really good friends with the firefighter Cancer Support network through the. Union movement. I still have, you know, still count President Rice and and secretary treasurer lemur as as as good friends from my time back when I was on the Union board and still worked very closely with those with those folks and so. All that networking stuff is just critically important because there there is so much good stuff going on in the fire service, but it's not always easy to find.

Peter

Yeah, I think I think that if if. Everyone kind of took the networking side of it more seriously. We make things a lot easier, a lot easier to get grants, a lot easier to have access to information, what's working, what's not, who who's who can help you, those types of things. Yeah, definitely good advice for sure.

Alex

And I and I think you know, to a large extent I think we're doing that more and more and better and better all the time. You know the the Cal Chiefs EMS section that I'm a part of because obviously I've been very involved in EMS stuff in the last. Five or six years. They they did a fantastic job when COVID first started and we're having these twice weekly calls and just sort of sharing. We were gathering information from Italy because Italy was the 1st place that blew up. If you remember, back in the day and sort of, you know, when we really didn't know what was going on and how we could keep our folks safe and everything else. There was a ton of collaborating and sharing going on. I think that. That just speaks to we. Are getting better at it, I think.

Peter

Yeah, good, good, good, good. Should we switch gears? And I I I mean I want to talk about the stuff that you're passionate about, the behavior, behavioral health aspect of this. And I definitely think you were kind of trailblazing the way for, for Ventura County when it. Came to this. Tell us. Kind of. Give our listeners an overview of where we're at when we start. Before you dove in and we kind of made some progress and then what the progress has kind of looked like and then where we're at today. And then I have some follow up questions. About access to services, those types of things for the guys.

Alex

Yeah, let's look. Well, no. And and I think I could speak to sort of our experience as sort of a microcosm of of of what it looks like more broadly in the fire service, because I think we're we've just sort of going along. It's similar to the fire service. Maybe, maybe a little bit ahead in in some areas and and not in others. But you know, I had a. I was secretary treasurer of the Union at the time. We had a bad call. I was I was actually on Thanksgiving Day. It was a it was. A A pedestrian versus vehicle involving the miner. A little boy and so ultimately. It was a fatality. And and I you know that that impacted me pretty pretty significantly. I was an engineer at the time and it wasn't, I sort of had a bit of a myopic response in terms of getting myself some help and and and sort of working through that. The firefighter that was with me that day, he came to me about six months later and he was just saying I'm just having a hard. You know, I'm just not coping with stuff anymore. And at the time, all we had in terms of support was the phone number of the back of your medical card, you know, behavioral health number. And if you've ever tried calling that number, it's a really poor way to get get behavioral health support, you know, because. You know nothing insurance company necessarily, but you know that will give you a list of 12,000 providers in your area. 85% of which aren't. Taking you new clients won't even call you back. You know, there's all those problems and you talk about cultural competency. Anything there was just no good solutions and no good ways to get support, and that was kind of that was my first sort of aha moment where I'm like we've got to change the way we're doing things. And originally I think I sort of went into it that way. You know, I was going to fix CISM and because I I thought that was where the key was. And ultimately. Whether you do CISM, whether you do peer support and and you know or both, you know there's there are people that fall on on either side of that fence. Ultimately, it's much, much broader than just CSM or or having peer support, but just having a huge variety of options in terms of where you can go to get that. But also I think the other piece. About this is. The education right, because a lot of our folks. Symptoms of PTSD or PSI can creep up on you and and so you sort of feel like you're going crazy, but your body's just actually having a perfectly normal reaction to some kind of extraordinary event that you've gone through. And so so part of it has been the education piece as well that. And so both of those things again. As as we've done in Oxnard, but sort of brought more broadly in the fire service, I think those things we're getting a lot better at. But of course the other piece is that. When we first started this, you know, there was that sort of suck it up, buttercup mentality. Although I will say that I think when we first started going down this road of peer support. I think all of. Our folks sort of organically recognised that. That that wasn't working for. And so we had an overwhelming amount of support. For changing the way we're doing things and doing things differently, and I think that's where our program. Was able to establish itself very quickly, and so it was never a sort of a credibility issue. It was never. A people were sort of standoffish about it or anything like that because. Because I think they our folks really felt like they needed help. So it it ended up, it ended up working out really well and now I think some of that stigma is is lessening. I think it still exists and I think there are still. There's still sort of a level of suspicion. There's a level of. Like worried about confidentiality, there's all these sort of issues that still exist, but I think in the fire service we're doing a far better job than we were 10 or 15 years ago. Much still to. Do you know lots of like I? I think we're we're maturing and evolving in terms of behavioral health support and the fire service. But yeah, it's thankfully we're in a lot better. Place than we were.

Peter

What do you see? Where are the? The holes in the **** now like what? What's the next big, big thing that we? If fix, I don't know fix is the right word, but where? Where should the focus shift to and and and? And taking this to the next level. What does that look like? Yeah, you.

Alex

Know what I've sort of been wondering that myself a little bit. I think some of the things like I just went down this whole rabbit hole around sleep and the fact, you know, like first responders are all shift workers. And so our sleep is disastrous at best, kind of thing, either because you're staying up all night or you're getting woken up through the night. Depending on what kind of shifts that you're working. So I think there's more of an education piece and on some level. The the call volume just keeps going up and I think I don't think our staffing levels are ever going to sort of keep up with call volume. And so we are going to get busier. So how do we manage that better? And I've I've heard some terrible stats or sobering stats around. You know how long firefighters live in retirement and things like that because it is such a, you know it, it's such a strenuous career that I I feel like there there's something there that I think we need to do. In terms like, I think we're going to end up asking too much of our folks to some extent. So how we deal with that? I don't know yet. I don't know whether it's like FDNY, for example, has a fourth shift right? So they do 10 hour day shifts, 14 hour night shifts and they've tried to break it up. Well, people just trade around to to continue to work 20 fours, like that's what firefighters want to work. So I don't know where what the answer is. I think we we need to continue doing that, the education piece. You know, I've I've heard people say that maybe we need to screen firefighters better that that. Less likely to be impacted by by behavioral health issues.

Peter

Good luck with that one. That seems difficult.

Alex

Well, ultimately I think what we'll find there was that Asus study that they did through Kaiser years ago and basically the folks that are drawn to career. Drawn into fire service and military law enforcement. Are are the folks that really care, and they're also the folks that are often most impacted by these things? Because they get. So yeah, I don't know. There's a good. Answer for that.

Peter

No, I appreciate your perspective for sure. I know that. And I'm just speaking on our department sometime, like the education is there. People understand what it is like. There's a we've done a great job in that respect. But I think where we were struggling was logistically how to deliver the services to the guys. Like if someone raises their hand and says, hey, I need help. That was a source of frustration on our end because we didn't necessarily have, we didn't make it easy. We made it really difficult, even with all the strides and the culturally competent therapists and a lot of the, you know, at ease and some of these organizations that were around. It was still difficult, so can you speak to that? Like, what does Oxnard done to what happens if if I'm an Oxnard fireman and I say, hey, I'm in trouble, I need some help like, what does that look like? What do in your department?

Alex

Well, you know it, it's interesting you say that because I think that is one of our issues is that and if we take a step back from the fire service and just look at society more broadly for a second. Getting access to behavioral health services is a bear anytime, right? And and in the fire service, we often wait and wait and wait and and things creep up on us, where by the time someone does. Put their hand. Up they they need help right now, right? And and I think it's. And so it's that's a really difficult one that. That I don't. I don't think we we still do very well. You know, we have Doctor Shaw. We are going to add add another clinician to our program that can do some of the stuff that that Doctor Sharma doesn't do working with couples, working with children and things like that because there's some of the gaps that we've noticed in, in the services that we provide. I think the other thing though. Two is that workers comp is just a broken system and that is like I think we all thought that by making PTSD a presumption it was going to open up access to services a lot. And it just it's workers comp is just really difficult to use and I don't think the workers comp system works OK for you know broken arms or banged up knees or something like that. And even then it only just works OK when it comes to behavioral health, it's much more challenging to get get quality services. Or get services and then get quality services because of the way the workers comp system works. So I think that that is still a big challenge that we have, but a lot of times we find. In smaller or lower level issues where it's not crisis mode, I think we handle those situations fairly well. Our our peer team does fantastic work and and I know the work that they're doing is invisible to you know, to administration. But I know they're out there working every day and then. You know the the invoices that I get from Doctor Sharma when he meets with the firefighters, I share those with the peer team so they can see that there's no name shared or anything like that. It's all very confidential to try and encourage them to, to continue to have people reach out to to the doctor Shams. Well, you know the at ease program going away that that's created a bit of a hole for us that that needs filling and that's where we're looking at bringing on another clinician to to do some of the work that take some of the load off doctor Sharon a little bit. But I think it's also recognition, too, that you know there isn't A1 size fits all when it comes to clinicians. So we we needed someone more than just Ron. Helping us out.

Peter

That so you said something piqued my interest about bringing on another clinician that maybe to focus more on the families and kids. So one of the areas that. That our foundation is trying to focus on and it it's been a process to like arrive with what are we going to like. Tackle what? What's gonna be our issue? Because just firefighter mental health is way too broad. Like, I don't think we'd be effective if we just wanted to support firefighter mental health cause. It's it's too broad. So I think where we're like focusing and landing, we're not 100% there yet is not on the firefighter, it's on the the family at home, the spouses and the kids. And just hearing you say you guys are thinking about bringing out a clinician to focus on that is on its own amazing. So maybe what? What spurred that on, and what does that? What what? What does that service look like for the for, for the family?

Alex

So it's a good question, because I'm, I'm we're still sort of working through that. But you know, ever since I took over chief, we started doing November every year. And so folks can grow goofy mustaches and and I always try and have an education component with it each year. So last. Last year, you know, I teach the IFF resiliency class. So last year I actually put the the entire fire department through that eight hour resiliency class and which was really neat because I got to sort of hang out with everyone for a day, you know, in, in small, small chunks, 10 or 15 folks at a time. But through doing that. Class there are some some slides that we would sort of stop on like, hey, what in this department are we doing well? What do we need to do better on? And so it was a lot of getting feedback from from the boots on the ground. And and sort of, you know, honest feedback about what we are doing well and more importantly what what we need to do better. And so that was one of those things. Is particularly coming out of COVID 2 more more sort of social events outside of work, and then you know. And so how do we include the families more sort of where that conversation starts? And then from that, we did look at, I looked at a couple of different vendors on like Accounting Team International or something like that. But as we've done with our behavioral health program from the beginning is we wanted the Oxnard way, so. You know, we've sort of it. It wasn't a perfect fit for what we were looking for. So that's where we're going out and actually finding clinicians and and and bringing them on and and sort of having them do just what Ryan's doing. But but another little. To that how it's still a challenge to get to the family zone, I think you would, you would probably agree with with what the foundation and Surefire Foundation's been doing. You know, it's hard to get spouses to to events, you know, if if their husbands or wives are working or kids have got issues, you know, like. So there and I think lies our biggest challenge when it comes to families. But but being able to provide couples counselling and then if kids need some support from a, from a fire, culturally competent clinician, then absolutely we need to get. That set up.

Peter

Yeah, I think that it is a challenge for sure. On our end. It's it's. Because they think they're the ones that are kind of suffering in. Silence that no. One's listening to or hearing from unless they are super tied in with some other fire families, which we're finding is less and less as life gets more busy and COVID and all the other things. So definitely something that needs attention and and what what's what's the challenge for us is what? And we provide. Tactically, that will make things better without, obviously, you know, we would never be presumptuous enough to think we're going to solve this problem, and we're gonna make all these problems go away. But as far as from an impact of the available resources we have, what can we do to make it better? And that's that's the hard part, but I you guys are cutting edge and I think a lot of it's a testament to you and you're driving your. Your ability to get things done, but the fact that you guys are hiring a department. Therapist to provide these services to the families. Screams that you guys support your guys and that you care. We're not even talking about that on. That's not in the conversation on our end and obviously we're a a nonprofit. We're not the fire department, but that's where we're focusing. But to hear that the actual fire department is putting some effort behind that, definitely an example for other departments to learn from, for sure. Jason, I know you had your hand up. Sorry I did spend steamroll in this conversation. Go ahead.

Jason

No, no, that's that's perfect. I interviewed chief and I. You're interviewing chief. Hamilton, that's good.

Speaker

So I'm gonna, I'm.

Jason

Gonna circle way back a little bit.

Peter

OK. All right.

Jason

Chief, you talked about starting back back in the day when we did CIS CISM stuff. And what, what a difference it is from then going to those things going. Oh man, I don't want to go to this and. I'm sure not. Going to talk to these people. Back in the day when when you and I started, I know we did some of the same. Circles together when you were new and I think you and I did, the firefighter of the year circle of all the clubs and stuff together at that time. And then as we as we moved. Up talking about the peer support team, I think Oxnard was integral and starting Ventura Cities peer support team as well, which I appreciate it, Tim. Spence came over and kind of led our team who gets voted in, how that voting to the peer support team. Happens, which is one of the things I wanted to. Touch on a little. Bit the peer support team is actually voted on by the suppression members. Is that how it is in Oxnard as well, so that the most comfortable people who you're comfortable with or who who ends up being on the team?

Alex

Yeah, exactly. And so we and again we from the networking piece, you know we stole that idea from I think I got that from a department in Connecticut or something. But but yeah, basically, you know, when we first started our program, we we basically sent out a survey that. Sort of asked the same question a few different ways, but who? Who internally would you go to? You know, if you're having a crisis, if you're having issue at at home, if you know and sort of asked those questions and we basically took the the top 10% of those names and said congratulations, you just won a popularity contest and but it wasn't so much a popularity contest. As as they you know. It was one of our issues, I guess with CISM is the way it was established were you know it, I think people would sign up to do that because I don't know. They were hoping there was gonna be a leg up in their career or something they put on their resume versus our peer support program where it's it really is your chosen by the folks. That are going to be the ones that are ultimately coming coming to get the help and you know and and even even with that being said, going back to that 8020 rule, we still have you know we've got peers that are way busier than other peers, but the they're not so busy peers though, they're the ones that that sort of grab the unassuming folks or whatever. I I find it. Think and so that's where our our peer team. You know, if I were to look at our peer team there, there's there's some folks that I probably wouldn't go to to have a conversation if I was struggling with something. But others that I would, and that's sort of the beauty of of that peer team is again it's it's lots of lots of choice you know lots of access to different avenues to get that help. And so I think that that has been one of the reasons why peer support has gained so much popularity in the fire service in the last 15 years. Things like that.

Jason

Yeah, just to have that start. By people who that who you would go. To and who you trust and. You know, like you. Said I have a lot of that too, where I wouldn't go to this guy, but I'd go to this guy and the team is there for just that reason, because everybody relates to different people. Like like Peter. Said I totally agree that it's obvious that you care for your people. You you're a. Pioneer, when it comes to the grant thing, the peer support thing. I know I've seen you at the November events and you pulled me aside and said, hey, all this mustache stuff is really, really funny and fun. And like you said, goofy, but I hope it's important to guys too, because you really do care that it's. It's about health. And I appreciate that. And the other thing you said that I want to hit on, I know Pete. Has his hand up. I'm. I'm taking over at this point.

Peter

OK, OK.

Jason

The other day you said that that I wanted to hit. On was the. Who decides they're going to apply to be a firefighter? Just happens. To be the people who usually care about the community the most, and those are also the people who are affected by tragedies into the community. Personally, they hate that the most resulting in some. Kind of PTS.

Speaker 4

I which which?

Jason

Is exactly what some of the psychologists and therapists that we've had on the on the show have talked about in the past and then sleep. Issues sleep issues, so I I love going down that rabbit hole with you too. I've done some research on that stuff and how much health that affects in in the fire community and and from top to bottom. It's more PTSD, or whether it's cancer and everything in between. We got to figure out some of these sleep issues for sure in. The fire department.

Alex

We're not. Let's let's go ahead.

Peter

Let's talk about. I just want to throw interject a quick story which I think you'll get a kick out of. And then I want to circle back to sleep because sleep is like one of my things, right? Like my sleep is terrible and I've I've gone down multiple rabbit holes as well. But so quick story kind of a sad story, but engineer Robert Neary had a cardiac arrest on duty. I was on that day. Vividly remember it. Thankfully, he didn't die and he's still with us, but we all ended up at CMH. We took him to the hospital, did our thing. Every one of our stations, I think stopped and everybody went to the to the hospital and they had us at the old hospital, the like the 8th floor or something. They cleared it out and just jammed all the firemen in there and. I vividly remember being in the room where we were going to have our little debriefing, and Ventura was definitely behind the times when it came to peer support at that time, which I don't even remember what year that was. So oxnard's peer support team came over and they called him and said, hey, you guys need to get over here because obviously this is pretty traumatic and pretty terrible thing happened. We're all finally in the room. I think they didn't bring all the firemen in the room. They brought just the people who were on the call, which I don't know. There was maybe 15 of us in there. And your, your, your team was trying to. Run what they were trained how to run from the peer support angle and then some of our brass was not really in tune with that and they were trying to run the CISM and it was like crystal clear the differences between the two and it turned into a little bit of a. Like a I don't want to say like a ******* contest, but it it it was. It it quickly diffused, but it was very obvious that we weren't on board with what you guys were doing and obviously you I think I think peer support is superior when it comes to all the research and everything but. That is an example of the fire department and how some departments take longer than others to adopt things, and some of them are cutting edge and progressive like I would say you and your team are and you know others take a little while. To catch up. Now in Full disclosure, we've totally caught up and we're not doing CSM anymore. We're we're. On the pier. Supports team or strategy or whatever, but it was. Not funny, but it was just interesting to see those two worlds like colliding in real life on an actual incident.

Alex

I I I do remember that. Well, I remember having a a conversation. I think Alvin was one of the guys that came over there to to to help you folks out. And and I know, you know Albin is he? He's a very popular peer. Like he he's he's definitely one of the one of the folks that does 80% of the work to a large extent. So and I I remember having that conversation with him. And he was like, and in hearing Albin talk about it, I think it was, it was just sort of a. There wasn't a comfort level there with this idea that it's just all voluntary, right, like whereas where CSM you sort of forced to some extent to to, to. Anticipate or you feel an obligation to participate. And I think that's where some of your folks, the brass, as it were, were kind of like, wait, that's it like none. There should be something more, you know, and I think that's where it it got a little bit sideways, but it sounds like it all worked out in the end and they. Got it figured out.

Peter

Yeah, it it totally worked out. I I just brought it up just as an example of the stuff we were talking about. I there were people who got up and like, we're like, I'm out of here. Like, I'm not doing this, which I think is the problem with CISM, like, forcing people to do things and they're not ready or they don't want to. Very interesting.

Alex

And we just had, we had a significant call in Oxnard and and it sort of brought all this stuff back out again to some extent. But our our folks were dealing with a a behavioral health emergency with a patient ultimately asked PD to respond within minutes of PD getting. There was an officer involved shooting. And so. So it pretty like a pretty radical call to run and then from a behavioral health standpoint, we're like, wow, these guys are, you know, like I think one of the battalion chiefs expressed to me like we need to bring them in or maybe we need to send them home or maybe we need to like sort of had that. Feeling of like we need to do more and we can't just like. Hey, we're here if. Notice kind of thing and and certainly we we did do more than we're here than if you need us. But there is a little bit of like you sort of want to, I don't know, wrap somebody up and bubble wrap or something after a big event like that and hope that everything's going to be OK. But working through those. Those incidents and making sure that that our folks have the support they need and again the education piece like what? What does you know, a delayed trauma reaction? Look like, you know, like, 3 days from now, you might burst into tears while you're eating. You know, breakfast cereal in the morning kind of thing. And so knowing that. That may happen. And it's fine. Is is just a another key little piece to to sort. Of pass on to our folks, so.

Jason

Yeah, yeah. I have a question for you. So when it comes to Oxnard, first of all that that call that you're referencing was crazy. It's. Yeah, it's on the. The police departments site, I believe too, for for the Sergeant. They made a video of out of that out of.

Speaker 4

That but as.

Jason

A fire department we've reviewed that. On my on my crew. Anyway, just to go. Keep safe. Here's something that could happen completely out of your control and just look around. So just to reference that call and then I I wanted to ask you specifically, what does a traumatic call like that where somebody brings up hey, maybe peer support would be beneficial in this situation? What does that look like logistically from your department? How does that start? Who does it come from? And then who gets notified?

Alex

So when that call came out, it a so there's a there was a page that went around you know the Chiefs Group has a page and so any significant event, there's a page that goes around and as as much. So I can notify Council members if needed, but obviously in a. Call like that, that would. Be a a Police Department notification. Right away I I was actually I was teaching a suicide intervention class with Tim Spence up in Sacramento the the night that call happened. And so it was. Kind of like. That sounds rough, and so I I reached out to Albin to make sure he was aware of it, and then, you know, just. Sort of. This this call seems more radical than than than a regular call that we would go on. So you know, like whatever resources you need, you know, like, if you need to bring Ryan, if you need it, you know. And so we did step it up a little bit because it because of the nature of that call I guess, but ultimately. We did talk about allowing those folks to go home and and like having a day at home and just sort of having some time and we were sort of looking out at like when their next shifts were only to figure out that two of those guys were mandated that following shift at that station because of course, why not, you know, this is the way. Latencies work so, but both those individuals, they they appreciate actually being able to work together that day. So I think when it comes to incidents like that and our our peer response is. What do you guys need right now? Like what you know? And I think that that's one of the the key questions. 98% of the time, I feel like people have an answer. To that question, you know like, what do you need right now? And so so it was a lot of that then there was some follow up because as you mentioned that those videos. You know our our Police Department does a really. Good job of. Of transparency with the public. So they're releasing those videos. But even that was a conversation police chief called me. And he's like, hey, you know, we're we're releasing these videos as part of our public transparency efforts. Your folks are going to be in these videos like. Do do they want to see it first? There you know. So we we sort of had a dialogue around that prior to that release. Just so our folks were prepared for it and. Ultimately, they they were all. They they didn't have any problem with it being released and and the fact that they were on that video ended up being fined. But I think they also appreciated. Being brought into that conversation prior to the release.

Jason

That's good that you guys have that relationship with the Police Department for sure. And a lot of the debriefing like you referenced happens definitely within the crew after day-to-day calls. Is it usually the company officer say it's not like a a page out like it was a normal call that you know, something terrible happens, but it's not necessarily such. A big deal. So probably like referencing the call where you had a fatality for a child. That's obviously really tough on a lot of the firefighters that work on those calls. Is that something the company officer would then? Reach out do. You have a phone number for the peer support group or. How does that go around to to if they need some assistance?

Alex

So we we really heavily emphasize that with the company officers to to one be sort of paying attention and also encouraging them to to use the peer team. So we just have, there isn't a single number, but you know the the peer roster is up at every station. And so there are folks. And I think now because as as folks have promoted up, we're we're adding more peers at at the lower ranks. And so we actually have, I think we've probably got 16 or 17 personnel now that have gone through the peer support training. So we, we do have a pretty good depth and now we've got chief officers that that appears as well and so. So I think there's a there's a much greater awareness there and but I I think it also is. We are relying on on those company officers or those informal leaders. To make it a priority and so and really emphasizing that because you never know which ones are going to stick. You know, like you can, you can guess on a lot of lot of the calls that will be sticky but not always you know and so that's where we really need to just sort of check in with folks see how they're doing and check in with them. In a week or a month because I feel like, particularly after right after a radical event. Everyone's messed up, you know, like it it was a radical event, but your brain needs some time to sort of process that. And so as long as it does over that. That next week to 10 days to two. To four weeks or whatever it is. As long as you get get that process your your brain and your body's doing what it needs to do. You know, hopefully.

Jason

You're able to.

Speaker

Work through it.

Jason

Chief, what does it look like when you take on a new peer support member? Kind of training do they get?

Alex

So the the, the, the two basic classes that that we provide is the two day peer support class that the IFF does. And so I'm also on instructor for that, which which sort of helps. We can do it internally. I do try and send them out to other places to get that. Though as well just because. It's good to get it from someone other than than myself, and then the second class is the two day suicide intervention class. And so they're the two basic classes that we have folks. Go through and then it's just encouraging them to go to conferences where we can, you know, the the Navy seals do a fantastic thing every year down in San Diego. The PSA has some really good stuff going on too, so looking for opportunities like that and then whenever we have you know the. F sometimes will deploy personnel. After radical events, so I've done a few deployments for the IFF. So wherever we can, we'll send Piers out on those things as well to gain experience, because a lot of it really come once you got those basic classes, it really just comes down to the experience and just sort of being comfortable being in somebody else's turmoil.

Speaker 4

Hi I'm Austin folk, an engineer with the Ventura City Fire Department. I'm also on the board of the Ventura Fire Foundation, an organization that supports firefighters and their families. The foundation produces this podcast as part of our mission, I worked with the foundation because I was witnessed to the help that it was able to provide. To my family. Foundation needs your help first, please subscribe and rate this podcast. On your podcast. This helps us get a higher ranking and more visibility for the show. 2nd, If you support the podcast and the foundations work, please consider donating. Every dollar helps us support firefighters and their families. There's a link in the show notes where you can donate through the website at www.venturafirefoundation.org. Thank you for listening.

Peter

OK, so I think let's let's talk about sleep. So this is a a topic that I think every fireman is interested in cause mainly because there's the lack of, right, like we don't sleep act, you know well. Or if you do sleep, it's bad or you interrupt it 15 times like so and and and and your paper that you submitted to us before you definitely mentioned sleep deprivation. And going down a rabbit hole. So let's let's get down that hole and and start talking about this. What it is. And obviously you're trying to tie it to. November, which I think is awesome, but. Where where are you at with this? How did you kind of get to where you're going? And yeah, what's your take?

Alex

So it you know what again, these things sort of happen organically and I don't know why I didn't think of this more, but I when I was doing the last year's November and we were doing resiliency training, that was one of the big every single class like we talked about like you know where are people struggling most, every single class that was sleep, sleep was the number one. Issue and and so I've sort of been thinking through that like I can't add more resources so that you don't have to run as many calls in the middle of the night and. Things like that, right? Like we just don't have that. And so how do we deal with this and and then actually one of the other IFF peer support instructors that I'm close with, he actually works for Annapolis Fire Department. We have our instructor Development conference once a year. I caught up with him last December. I want to say. It was out in Florida like he ran a yoga session on the beach at sunrise. It was awesome, you know, like we got to do some stuff anyway. He had sort of gone down this sleep rabbit hole, and that's where he got me interested. In it. But just if you look at risk factors for firefighters, right, it's cardiac, it's cancer and it's behavioral health guests are the three biggest risk factors for a lack of sleep. Right. It's the same stuff. And yeah, that was sort of my like, wait, we we got to be better at this. And so just looking at how how critical sleep is to our health and then again the little things that we can do, so how can we educate folks and so? So that's part of what November's going to be and and certainly we'll be we're going to do a train. The trainer for this this sleep hygiene program so found these folks out of Harvard University that that did a bunch of studies using grant funding, actually firefighter prevention research grant. Money anyway, so it's basically the Sleep matters initiative. And so that's something we're going to. So we'll invite your folks to come on over and do the train the training course and they can teach your folks to say we're going to do this or offer it up county wide. But there's there's some really basic things we can do in sort of education and then relatively basic things we can do, maybe in station modifications, but also as we're looking to start rebuilding some of our older fire stations. So we just started signing the contract in an architectural firm. So then looking at station design right, making sure those dorm rooms. Have better soundproofing. You can have them cooler at night like using and. This sounds goofy, I know, but using a pink noise machine right? You've heard of white noise? And so it's sort of, it's sort of an analogy for, you know, the different different sounds on the spectrum. You know they use colors to describe it, so white noise is sort of all the noises at the same volume. Pink noise is just sort of a little snippet of that. So it's, I guess, softer than white noise. But using that to help folks sleep. Getting the understanding that you know, like you get a call at 4:00 in the morning and you're like, oh, I'm not gonna go back to bed. Let's just make a pot of coffee and you know I'm up. Well by doing. That you you're potentially losing up to 60% of your R.E.M. Sleep because most of your R.E.M. Sleep happens at the end of your sleep, right? You sort of, you get these, like, longer and longer. Chunks of REM sleep as you go through the night, so. If if you don't try and go back to sleep, you're going to lose a lot of that REM sleep, you know. And then I think Doctor Sharma said it when he was on, you know, like going to sleep at the same time, going to sleep and waking up at the same time is is another really good thing that. You can do for. Sleep and so. So it's just these little things that we can talk, but also the understanding that. Like sleeping pills. They're no good. For you, you know it's it's, it's like using alcohol to help sleep. You're not getting good sleep by doing that. Like your, your eyes might be closed and you know you might be racked out. You're not getting good sleep. And so then, you know, melatonin isn't isn't really a good one to use either, just it's good for jet lag and. That's basically what. What melatonin is good for otherwise? You know what other things so part of this is the education piece and then looking at and one of the things that I want to I've just started working on is like a basically a fatigue management policy like making it OK for people to take naps during the day. And so how do we how do we do that while still? Handling department, business, right and so sort of working through. So I've just started trying to figure out how we're. Going to do that. To to make that OK and make that, you know, like particularly if you're getting up, you know, multiple times a night and then working multiple days in a row. Got to be taking naps because you're just not getting enough sleep and you know some people will say, you know you don't want to sleep more than 40 minutes and you want to try and. Get those naps in. Before 4:00 in the afternoon, or you'll find it harder to go to sleep at night. In talking with the harbour docks, they're like it sounds like your folks are. So busy that any sleep is good. Take a nap. If you can catch one kind of thing so it's going to improve the quality. Of life for our folks.

Peter

I think it's. I think it's it's wild that you're we're even having this conversation about, you're going to have the guys sleep during the day if if if. This happened and this. Then you need to be doing this. The fact that that's even a conversation is crazy to me, because when we got hired on the fire department. This was not anything anybody was even thinking about. In fact, I mean, there were plenty of guys who take naps, but they was frowned upon for sure, but that's awesome that you're kind of leading from the front, are you? So I listen to a podcast Matt Walker, and I think he does work with Harvard. Is that so? He has a great podcast on. In Deep dive on everything related to sleep and how it it's interesting to me is how much science is behind all the the things that they say you should do to have much better sleep. I struggled with this after I retired like I I my sleep. It's still not perfect, but I'm now to the point where I get like 6 1/2 hours of uninterrupted. Sleep and I'm tracking it on my watch and I know when I'm going into REM sleep and deep sleep and all this stuff, but it takes a long time. But I think that just little. Tips that people can employ in their lives is huge. I mean, it's because the hard part about the fire department is it's impossible to get a routine going like there's all this. Well, you need a sleep routine. You need a or a nighttime sleep routine in the morning. It's it, in my opinion, that was so difficult cause. You know you could get a call at 5 o'clock 4:00 and 6:00. Like it's hard to do that stuff, but. I love the fact. That this is entering the, you know, the sphere of awareness, especially someone sitting at the top of an organization, so kudos to. You for that.

Alex

Yeah, no. And and Matt Walker, you. There's a really good Ted talk that he did for you. You know, if you just want a little snippet of of the information to to know the importance of it, I think folks do. But Matt Walker also wrote a book Why We Sleep, which is a great read and reading that was what really scared me. I'm like, we got to do something different. So because it is just so critical. To our health. And ultimately the biggest thing, and this is what impacts all. Of us is that that lack of sleep over a long period of time. It's ultimately your immune system that ends up struggling with the worst, which is where you know, it's it's harder to recover from things.

Jason

It's harder to get better after a cold.

Alex

Or a flu. And then as you get later in life with it and your immune systems down and even I. Think Matt Walker? Talks about these, you know, these natural killer cells that we have that come from a high functioning immune system that actually go after the cancer cells, you know, early on in the cancer. And so if you don't have those, you know like look at all these risk factors behind the lack of sleep. And then you look at what's killing firefighters. There's no accident there, you know. And so that's where we've gotta we've we've got, we've got to do better with the understanding that we're not going to avoid having crappy sleep and getting woken up, you know? So it's doing everything we can to to minimize the impacts is where we're going to get to.

Peter

Yeah, no, I well said I our next guest on the pod. This is Sean Toomey. He's with the first responder Sleep Recovery Foundation, which focuses on on 1st responder sleep issues. So we're this is one of the areas that we considered like really focusing on that and the families. And I think we're leaning towards the families. But yeah, there's no, I think I don't remember what the statistic was, but like. Sleep deprivation is like akin to smoking or something crazy like the the risk to your health of of not having it regularly and then. Do that over 30 years chronically like you. It's not rocket science. Our guys are dying early of these. Issues you know.

Alex

You know, it's interesting. When I when I was doing the the residency stuff last year from November and a few folks asked about testing for testosterone in our in our annual medicals and the time was like I don't like I wasn't, I wasn't picking up a Nexus to why we would necessarily do that, but the more research I've done, I'm like no, we absolutely need to be. Looking at that and one of the things and again I think it's in Matt Walker's like podcast or his Ted talk, but. Getting less than six hours of sleep a night routinely will give you a testosterone level of someone 10 years. You're seeing you right. Like it it it's it's dropping it. And so and then all the impacts that that can have either trying to start a family or just energy levels and and these different the the different issues that low testosterone can. Can create. So yeah, all of a sudden Now I'm sort of coming on board with that and how else we can. How else we can measure this and then try and deal with it.

Peter

Yeah, I think that I think that this issue requires like strong leadership because. It you know, there's a lot of pressure on organizations, especially the government, right? Like, Can you imagine what you're you're going to take some heat if you go? Yeah, my guys, they take naps now and I'm this is sanctioned and this is OK. Like, Can you imagine the haters that are? Going to be. Like what are we paying the fireman for to sleep on duty? Like, obviously, they're already getting paid to sleep at night. Like which is for sure going to be some pressure coming from people, right? Like no doubt about it. But that's why it takes. It takes strong leaders in the fire service to go. This is why and I don't really care about what you're saying because I'm here to protect the guys and make sure they can do the the job that we've hired them to do. So I applaud you on that for sure.

Alex

Yeah, I think a lot of that. That's that's part of my job in terms of educating the policymakers, educating the public on on what the job is. Because I I think it's perfectly justifiable if you actually look at what you folks have to do now, there's always gonna be haters. You know, there's some people that aren't gonna be convinced and and that's fine. And everyone's entitled to their opinion. But I think they're in sort of lies my challenge to some extent is that. I need to be. Better about educating the policymakers and the public. For why we need to do these things because essentially firefighters are industrial athletes, you know and and that's why we're paying them and that's and but it is an incredibly strenuous and dangerous. Career, which is why firefighters earn a fantastic pension, is because a lot of them don't get to enjoy that pension for very long because their career so. It's so strenuous, so all of those things, I. Think it's just. Yeah, that's just sort of my challenge in. Trying to educate folks.

Peter

Yeah, well said. Let's switch gears to something a little lighter, a little funner, and then we got to wrap this up because I want to respect. Your time as well. But so I mean just conversations you and I have had in the past or conversations with other firemen, not necessarily specifically you when you are. When you are not a chief and it's really easy to look at the chief and blame them like ohh this, it's his fault that this is happening or or or take that a step further when you're on the Union board which you were and Jason was and everyone's been involved with at some point. It's really easy to look at the chief and go. He's the reason why. That's why Z is happening and you have a target on your back for sure, and so my question to you is. And this is all in good fun, not attacking you by any means, but but you are sitting. In the seat. So is what? What would you tell you, you know, cause you had, I'm sure you've. Had some of those. Same sentiments when you were not. What's different about what? What's different about the position you're in? Like, what does your viewpoint change you? I'm sure you can think back to those times when you weren't happy with. The chief at the time, like what is your perspective? Because obviously you've sat in a lot of well, you've sat in all the ranks and you you worked way up the, the the Union world as well. So you have all of the perspectives. What can you tell the people below the firemen and the captains and engineers who might have some of those? It's your fault, kind of. What can you tell them now that you've sat in all the seats? And yeah, sorry for butchering that question, but I think you kind of get what I'm asking.

Alex

Yeah, no. And and you know what, to be honest, like and. And I still joke about this with our folks, you know, like our folks make a sport of beating up the Chiefs. You know, we sit around the kitchen table and like ohh those idiots and I don't know what they're doing. Sitting in their glass tower and and I I did that. I was a part of that too, you know. And so that absolutely goes on and it's fine like to some extent, I feel like it's part of the culture and if they weren't beating me up then then I'm doing something wrong to some extent. You know, because part of it is. Like I said, I I think it's just our. But I will say that. I guess you never know what you don't know until you you get into a position and and I. So I had no idea. What I was getting into. Well, I I had a little bit of an idea of what I was getting into in this role, but what I've found though is that this is the best role I've. Ever had in? The fire service. I love being a chief and I love being a chief of the Oxnard Fire Department, so I got fantastic personnel that that really want to do good. And as I know. All firefighters do. But it for me sort of being a policymaker. For our folks. I've I've really enjoyed and I think part of that, you know, getting beaten up by by by the rank and file because you're chief. Is can happen when we're not communicating well enough, like not articulating what the stuff that we're doing, because you know, you know, as a captain on the floor, you have no idea what I'm doing day-to-day. And and often it doesn't look like there's much going on. You know, I I talk. I was having this conversation last week where I think it's harder to have. Wins as a chief. Than you did at lower rank. The wins are easier to spot in terms of whether you like, did a good job on a call, whether you. You're mentoring one of your folks to to take a promotional test or or whatever those things are. I feel like we as a chief officer, we we struggle to identify something as a win because it's all it's incremental progress in what we're doing. But I would hope over time. I I I feel like a lot of my folks really appreciate the work that we've been able to do since I've been in this position and hopefully over time they see that you. Know like ultimately, well, all the chiefs that I know, certainly within the Ventura County, they're they're in it to take care of their folks and it that may not not always be very clear and obvious but that's. Why we're doing this job and to a large extent, I feel like it was just what I was doing when I was in the Union leadership. I just do it slightly differently now. So but I take that same perspective.

Peter

So no, like light bulb moments like, oh, This is why? Because now I know this versus I didn't know that before. Not nothing like that. It it doesn't sound like. I, I've. I've wanted to ask that question just because I personally think that. I think the job is really difficult. Obviously I've never done it, but I mean you're you're. You're trying to. Politicians happy essentially like great, good luck with that like. That's hard to do. Right. They don't always agree with each other. And that to me seems like a nightmare like and then at the same time you have all the guys behind you who are expecting something from you as well. And I think it's a challenging position to put anybody in. But I will say I think you you do an awesome job and I think your reputation. And the county you know is is. Is well deserved as as someone who's progressive takes care of their. Guys and kind of. Does a good job, so yeah.

Alex

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Jason

I have two for you. Before we let you. Go chief that. I've been wondering about for a while. So first of all, how do I get Amazon to come to Ventura?

Speaker

All right.

Alex

OK.

Jason

No, I'm just. Kidding. How do? You work with businesses to help fund some fire fire department structure. Or firefighters. How do you get to to to kind of join forces with you and say, yeah, I want to support you. Or how does that conversation start? You know, I'm sure you could do a whole podcast just on this, but give us a brief oversight.

Alex

Yeah, you could and I'll. Tell you that's one thing that I that. I I've been I feel a bit flat footed on as a chief in, in working with the business community, sort of not only just in new development you know like like the Amazon. You know that whole development out on the east side of Oxnard, the sakoku development there, there was a specific plan for a development agreement that was signed years and years ago that we were gonna get a fire. You know that development and that went away as they updated the development agreements and everything else. And as Amazon came in and so, but now as we're having more and more developers look at building out there. We're seeing our risk profile change to the point where no, we actually really need to look at having a fire station out there. Because of the. The types of companies that are coming in, that's expensive, right? And so having these conversations with developers like we need your help. You want to build this, whatever this thing is here. And it's adding risk to our city like we need to be able to mitigate that risk. And so having those conversations. But then it's also, you know, a false false alarm ordinance that we did a couple of years ago that, you know, the business community didn't really care for because ultimately there's fines after multiple false alarms. But the goal is to reduce the number of false alarms because it takes away the credibility of the. The fire, you know, everyone ignores the fire alarm these days because it's just got to be, you know, it's it's a false alarm. And so so trying to educate the the businesses on that side of things is a real challenge and something that I. You know, I'm sort of trying to catch up on now, I guess in, in doing a better job. Of articulating that. Stuff, so I don't know if I answered the question as much as was that does that. Do you do?

Jason

You do you find resistance to when you have these conversations with the with the. Developers and the builders to. To giving money to the fire department. I understand the false alarm ordinance is probably not their favorite. I get that part. Or are they more wanting to join you in that?

Alex

I I I think they they. Take the conversation very seriously, but ultimately they're they're in business and they're in business to make a profit. And so you. Know they they. They always, you know, have that which I can't fault them on. You know, they they need to be able to make money in this. And so it's just sort of it, you know, it's trying to find that balance and strike that balance, but they're not always easy conversations. And I know we've we've been working with somebody that's looking at developing out in Sacre at the moment and they haven't been easy conversations. And they've gone on longer than I think the developer would have cared to have them go on. But but I think ultimately we're getting to a point where, where, where we're getting to an agreement, you know, so it's it's just taking some time, but yeah. The businesses are gonna try and minimize their costs as much as possible. That's that's what you. Do in business so but.

Jason

Sure. They're in business, right?

Alex

And and I've had really good support from the city in terms of helping have these conversations with the developers, which I think is also important. You know, having my boss, the city manager, Alex Lewin, has been fantastic. And then folks within the city manager's office, his deputy city manager, has been really instrumental in helping. Because she came. From community development, so she has a really strong background. With the business. Community, so that's helped. Got a great city attorney that overseas this stuff, so. So those folks helping me out has really. Given me some of the the education I needed because again, I didn't know what I didn't know until I got into this position and and conversations with developers is one of those. That I didn't see that one coming.

Jason

Yeah, I appreciate you letting me take that left turn with you for a minute. And then the last. One I have. Is what do you see for Oxnard fire departments? What are you super excited about? That's that's coming up for the department as a whole. Right now, what are you looking for?

Alex

You know there there's a couple of things. So internally it's it's sort of updating stations and and equipment vehicles. You know, we've got we've got 5 engines and a ladder truck on order that we're you know that with supply chain issues. Are still a little ways. By we just signed a contract with an architectural firm to build those three of our stations and rebuild them. And we managed to. Do that and bulldozing 2 more of them and rebuilding them, and part of that is like those those five stations. You're still sitting behind a curtain in a common area, and that's just not, that's just not appropriate for a modern fire station. But as a part of that. Two, the other reason we need to build our broaden our fire stations is is building for the future, right oxnard's kind of hemmed in property wise. So we're only going to go up, not out any further. So we don't necessarily we may need one more station, maybe two more stations, but ultimately we need to be able to house more personnel in our existing. Options so any of our single engine stations right now that we're. Going to be. Rebuilding we'll have the ability to sleep up to 10 personnel a night and be.

Jason

Three app base.

Alex

Wide so that we can have. Maybe there'll be an ambulance in our future. Maybe there'll be a a squad or, you know, another ladder truck. And so so sort of building for the future is something that I'm excited about, but but just touching on ambulances, I think innovation in EMS is long overdue and that's something that I'm really excited about and. I've been working with the other with the other fire, fire, chiefs and fire departments on what sort of a common vision that we want to see. But I think there is a ton of innovation that can go on. And right now we're trying to get legislation passed at the state level to overturn the the Court decision that we had between between the city and the county because we would like to have more self determination in the services that our residents receive. We need to have a more robust or a robust. You need paramedic program because again, that gets back to reducing number of frequent flyer calls we get, right. So we can try and reduce call volume by having a a better community paramedicine program. So I think that's something that I'm really excited about is really innovating EMS and how we deliver those EMS services. With alternate destinations having partnership with servering centers like doing these different things, I think there is a ton that we can do and so that's something that I'm kind of excited about.

Jason

Those are the conversations that seem to be going on around all the Southern California areas. And I know all over Ventura County is building higher and more more dense fire stations, more personnel and there and that the EMS thing is huge too. So it's good to hear that that stuff's happening and moving forward all all around. Us, Peter, do everything else.

Peter

Yeah. Let's see, trying to. What advice do you have for a young firefighter that that's interested in promoting just your tips and tricks without going too crazy?

Alex

You know, I I.

Peter

Yeah, but like.

Alex

I think is like the biggest thing I'd say and I think. I've said it a. Few times through the podcast, but be curious like like learn. There is so much to learn that like what I love about the fire service is how broad you can go. And so just being curious, being open minded to like learning from different what what I found when I was going through. So particularly engineer, I remember, you know. To some extent, everyone's got an opinion on things and so you know, you're taking too many opinions in you'll. You'll end up sort of drowning. And so picking you. Know four or five. Solid mentors that you have a lot of time for and and really like learning from them. I think is. Is the way that I sort of went about things and so finding those mentors and and grabbing a hold of them and and getting as much information as you can out of them is is, is where I'd start.

Peter

Yeah, good advice. Good advice. Well, it's been a great conversation. Any, anything you want to last minute things you want to chat about or if or if people are interested in kind of keeping tabs on you. What's the best way for them to do that?

Alex

Well, I I don't know about that. I don't have a very good presence on social media or anything. So I I don't know, I'll have to come back and do more podcasts or something. But you know one thing, I actually, I've I've just been thinking about this this last week and and I don't know if this idea is going to go anywhere and I don't know, maybe it's too too soon to talk about, but sort of coming up with.

Speaker

There go.

Alex

A Wellness centre for all first responders in the county, law enforcement, EMS, fire probation like. Almost a one stop shop, but just a a single place that that people can come, and whether it's to do, do a class, maybe there'll be clinical help there, you know, like, you know, somewhere where spouse can go to to get an education where we can. Host yoga classes at 9:00 in the morning when folks are coming off shift or I'm not. Really sure where. This thing is going to go, but I feel like all of these, all of these agencies, first responder agencies throwing all kinds of money at at behavioral health stuff, but.

Speaker

I think we.

Alex

Can sort of get an alignment and and utilize those. Those limited resources a little bit better and and because we're all sort of going after a lot of. The same things. So I've I've just started thinking through how we might be able to all pull in the same direction and maybe something like that like a first Responder Wellness Center might be a way to go down that road so. Anyway, more to follow on that because it's just. I I'm really only saying it publicly for the first time right now.

Peter

Well, well, I will say this, that that's that's something that our organization absolutely wants to be involved in the conversation because that's obviously in line with the, the, the work we're trying to do as well. I have no doubt that that that, that idea will gain traction just based on your your dislike for people telling you no, which I'm sure somebody's going to tell. Somebody's going to tell you know about that idea, which will. Only motivate you more, which is a good thing, but. Chief, it's been. A pleasure. We're glad you're able to come on the podcast. Thank you for sharing and being transparent. And I think it's really amazing the the work you're doing and how you're leading the the guys over in Oxnard, not the guys and gals over in Oxnard. So good, good job there, but thanks for.

Jason

Coming on. Thanks.

Alex

It's great to catch up with you. Guys and I. I thank you for having me on I. Really appreciate it.

Peter

All right. Well, that was a good conversation with the chief there. He's he talked about so much stuff. There's so many things that he's involved in and. You know, expertise on or or taking action on like the. The one thing that impressed me about talking to him was he seems to process information and then turn around and take action, which is kind of rare in. This day and age. Like the specifically the, the conversation about taking naps on duty like, OK, the the researcher is there. When I mentioned Matt Walker, he he clearly has been consuming Matt Walker's content as well. Which is, if any, of our people haven't absolutely go find that guy and start listening to him. But he then is like, OK, how can we make this beneficial for the guys? Well, they need to do naps. If you've been run this many calls at night or like, that's the type of chief that Alex is is like, which is really impressive because it's not. I wouldn't say the most common trait. That I've seen. What do you think?

Jason

Yeah, I thought. I thought it was really interesting when he started talking about the issues that firefighters have and how those are the exact same issues that are brought about by. Lack of sleep. And you can see how they go hand in hand. Well, I also liked when he talked about let's stop pretending that some of the call volume is going to go away. So how do we do better with what we have? Which is kind of what led you, what you were just talking about taking that on duty. Stop talking about how that's terrible and we're sleeping on duty. But let's talk about how we become healthier. And then the final one, Matt Walker, I kind of have a bone to pick with you. We've been talking about sleep for how many episodes and this is the first time I've heard about him. So I'm really excited to go to the podcast and check that out in his book too.

Peter

Well, Matt Walker is actually on our dream list of guests. So we're actually trying to get him on the podcast. I don't know how how that's coming along or not, but I would love to get him on. But yeah, no, his he has a podcast that's they're short like 20-30 minute episodes that are really. What we got coming up stairs.

Speaker

OK.

Jason

Stair climb on the 9th of September. So sign up, sign up to climb, sign up to be a sponsor. You don't have to. Be a first responder to do it all. First responders are encouraged, their families, and so is everybody else. So contact the foundation to sign up. You can get it on our website as well, so that's that's coming up. I'm excited to be. There for that one.

Peter

Yeah, that will be a good event for sure. All right, I think that about wraps it. Up anything else?

Jason

Have a good week. It was good to talk to you and great to hear. From Chief Hamilton again likewise have a good one.